All-Star Instead Of Reducing Tumbling How About Huge Tumble Bust Deductions

[Spazz]

I think the added deductions would help temporarily, but it's definitely treating a symptom, not the disease.

There are SO many coaches out there that push progression BEFORE perfection, and that's why there are so many janky tumblers. It's not just the coaches' instruction itself, but it's the MINDSET that they give to the kids. When I started tumbling, my coaches pushed progression. I literally got my handspring the week before competition and they were like "GREAT! Your standing two is in!" and it did not look good (or safe) at all. I then had another coach that made me work all the basics before I finally moved on, and within months I was a completely different tumbler, and I was in the mindset to PERFECT first.

However, I noticed a lot of girls around me that pushed progression for themselves, and the coaches never explained to them why that's not the right mindset to have. It's frustrating for me to watch a girl throw a scary layout and know that all she's thinking about is her full. It's obvious (especially when said girl tries her full and that's EVEN scarier) that she won't even be able to progress until she perfects.

Long post short - coaches need to be instructed not only on how to train athletes physically, but also MENTALLY so that everyone is on the same page about perfection before progression. I really do think that it would make a big difference on the safety of the tumbling athletes are throwing.

 

[cheeroracle]

How about penalize coaches for child negligence, as an adult they shouldn't be having children under the age of 18 performing skills they know darn well aren't going to be executed safely.

 

[crazycheermom]

I would agree on the deductions. IMO Jamfest seemed to be giving LESS deductions for tumble touchdowns. If I remember right, a simple touchdown was NO deduction. I think that goes to the whole theory of throwing a skill before it's solid. Now, of course, a simple hand down wouldn't be a killer deduction, but a deduction. And my PERSONAL PET PEEVE... I want a deduction for those front punches that people throw and can't land so they just automatically go into front roll! I HATE THAT!

 

[yojaehs]

1. Just because you land a skill every time doesn't mean you have perfect technique. The point of the whole point of this change was to make the sport safer. You can land your double without finishing your hips 100/100 times but that doesn't mean it is safe for you to be doing it that way.

2. Not landing a skill on the competition floor doesn't "obviously mean you don't have good technique". You can have perfect technique until you freak out and bail. Kiara Nowlin busted her NCA tumbling pass(quite gracefully actually, and she popped up and tumbled out of it) she is an Olympic medalist because of her technique, are you saying to her, "obviously you didn't have bad technique?"

3. You don't think twice about what your coach tells you to throw in the routine. The athlete can't be blamed if the coach deems your skill worthy of the routine.

1. kingston didn't say this would SOLVE the problem, but I do believe this would be a HUGE step in the right direction. Different people teach different techniques but for the most part if you land 100/100 it's probably pretty good technique.
2. As said before flukes happen, mistakes happen and as you pointed out even the best of the best make mistakes, did they still get a deduction, yes. Does that mean because you have a deduction your horrible, NO. But if others think the consequences of their mistakes are larger HOPEFULLY they will prepare differently. But mistakes may still happen, guess what, they will still get a deduction no matter who they are.
3. Again, your supporting the suggestion. Currently there are minimal consequences if a coach puts in a risky skill. This suggestion will hopefully deter this.

4. I don't see your point, are you saying "mistakes happen, let them throw them anyway?" I don't see your suggested solution?

 

[Philly Pherocious]

1. kingston didn't say this would SOLVE the problem, but I do believe this would be a HUGE step in the right direction. Different people teach different techniques but for the most part if you land 100/100 it's probably pretty good technique.
2. As said before flukes happen, mistakes happen and as you pointed out even the best of the best make mistakes, did they still get a deduction, yes. Does that mean because you have a deduction your horrible, NO. But if others think the consequences of their mistakes are larger HOPEFULLY they will prepare differently. But mistakes may still happen, guess what, they will still get a deduction no matter who they are.
3. Again, your supporting the suggestion. Currently there are minimal consequences if a coach puts in a risky skill. This suggestion will hopefully deter this.

4. I don't see your point, are you saying "mistakes happen, let them throw them anyway?" I don't see your suggested solution?

That was not in response to Kingston's suggestion. That was a response to a comment from another board member. My point is, high bust deductions won't solve the problem as effectively as tougher technique scoring would. The problem is the sport not being safe enough, hence the removal of our level 5 skills. Had you read through the conversation before you started typing you would have understood my point.

 

[fullinitup]

gymnastics is an oylmpic sport. they tumble too. they tumble way harder than we do. so y r we being punished n not them?[/quote

gymnasts require perfection and strive for it.... cheerleaders dont care and just strive to land it with little regards to what it looks like. they are just happy it lands

 

[Keep_Believing]

Let us say no one took out any of the allowed tumbling. But if you bust there are huge deductions. Let us say 5pts at worlds for every tumbling bust, 3 points for a touch down.

Feel free to throw all the skills you want, but you will move down the ranks quickly if you arent performing skills you have mastered.

This also could be applied everywhere at every level. Would not be breaking the rules cycle. And would have the same affect without pissing people off.

This reminds me of how gymnastics scores. They look for perfection of each and every skill.

 

[yojaehs]

That was not in response to Kingston's suggestion. That was a response to a comment from another board member. My point is, high bust deductions won't solve the problem as effectively as tougher technique scoring would. The problem is the sport not being safe enough, hence the removal of our level 5 skills. Had you read through the conversation before you started typing you would have understood my point.

I re-read and my apologies to you bc I took it the wrong way. I 100% agree that proper technique is the answer. I also agree that kingston suggestion is a backdoor approach to that answer.

 

[taytaydaubs]

Flyer bails? I totally blame her. Backspot or base trips? Yup, blaming them.



Then every team should win! Awesome, let's give out first place trophies to every team because who knows what happened to them. They could just be performing like level 4 athletes even though it's not like them. We don't know, who are we to judge? Why even bother with a judging panel, or deduction judges?

Competition is about what you bring to the floor that day, that moment. Not about what you can do in your own gym on your own time. This is the spirit of competition.

I'm not trying to say that at all, I agree that tumbling deductions need to be larger, I just don't think they need to be quite as large as a stunt deduction. Yes, a lot of times in stunts it can solely be one persons fault but when it comes down to it there were other people there who could have all probably done something in some way to help. And as for the athlete themselves I think their should be some way to deduct on penalize athletes for not using proper technique as well as for busts and touches. That way there is a way to tell if the athlete has the ability or not. I think this is needed because then coaches are less likely to pressure athletes to throw passes that they do not land consistently, usually due to the use of improper technique, leading to less touches and busts in the long run.

 

[Aw.Work.]

i just kinda of skimmed through this whole thread, so im sure i missed a lot so sorry if this has already been said.

i think giving more major deductions for bad tech. tumbling and tumbling that bust work help. people throw doubles in comp, my gym included, that dont get all the way around all the time. or are shaky and the coaches are just trying them out in the routine and they bust. if something is shaky or inconsistent thats when the possibility for injury comes into play.
i dont think the answer is taking the skill away.
going off that if coaches are pushing progression before perfection too much that is an issue too and thats where a lot of injuries come from. coaches should know better, if the athlete is not ready to throw the skill in a routine, the keep working it in the gym until it is comp ready 100% of the time.

going back to the deduction for a bust thing. it DOESNT MATTER if you can land 100% of the time in practice if you are going to bust on the mat everytime. if you bust in comp, you deserve a deduction. like someone said, if a gymnast messes up she or he gets a dedcution, the judges do not take into account that she probably lands that skill perfectly at practice, at the end of the day its what you compete that matters on the scoresheet. the judges do not take into account taht you ahve a girl or boy on your team that might get nervous for hers or his two to full and bust on day 1. a bust is a bust and it deserves a deduction.

sorry i think i started to rant a little at the end. but im done.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Why does a harsher tumbling bust penalty and a rise in technique/execution (I think this is a word usage issue- some people are using one when they mean the other) scores have to be mutually exclusive? Why can't we implement BOTH?

 

[Mightymouse34]

1. Just because you land a skill every time doesn't mean you have perfect technique. The point of the whole point of this change was to make the sport safer. You can land your double without finishing your hips 100/100 times but that doesn't mean it is safe for you to be doing it that way.

2. Not landing a skill on the competition floor doesn't "obviously mean you don't have good technique". You can have perfect technique until you freak out and bail. Kiara Nowlin busted her NCA tumbling pass(quite gracefully actually, and she popped up and tumbled out of it) she is an Olympic medalist because of her technique, are you saying to her, "obviously you didn't have bad technique?"

3. You don't think twice about what your coach tells you to throw in the routine. The athlete can't be blamed if the coach deems your skill worthy of the routine.

1. you contradicted yourself in the first one... you said what if you land it a hundred times in practice and bust it or touch down in a comp. Its not fair to deduct for that fluke, which I disagree with. If you land a double without finishing your hips then its not a double...its a 1 and 3/4...which is not a double. so no you didn't land a double. And I agree with you, its definitely not safe to do it that way.

2. Kiara Knowlin did freak out and bust. which means on that skill she didn't have perfect technique. She may have perfect technique in every other skill she throws, but on the one you are referring at NCA, no she didn't have perfect technique at that moment. Which was a fluke, just like Alicia Sacromone's fall in the 2008 Olympics, which caused her team to lose the gold medal... Flukes happen but they still cost their team. That's the point.

3. Thats on your coaches head if he tells you to throw a skill that is not ready for a routine. And the team will suffer for that decision. Shortly coaches like that will be looking for a job after repeatedly making poor skill decisions that costed their team and program success (this is my hope). And I believe itll push coaches to be more cautious about adding harder skills.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

kingston how is it that YOU can figure this out, but entire USASF can't??? Are you just that smart or are they just that....well I won't name call, but you get what I'm saying. lol

both

 

[xtremeteal4life]

Our society needs to get over the idea that we have to be so gentle to a kid's emotional state of mind. Competitive sports is just that, competitive. Yes, probably every kid on a team is going to be the reason a team lost at some point. Whether it be due to busting a skill or falling out of a stunt or whatever. Get over it. It's gonna happen. Stop trying to be so delicate with it. Toughen up. Our entire country is going to pot because we're so scared to offend people! Blah!

You really do have something to this..There is this culture now in our society that we HAVE to protect our kids from failure at all costs...and it's literally costing us. I've read quite a few good books on this subject, but basically you can't baby your kids their entire life. If I got into a fight w/my best friend/next door neighbor growing up, do you think my dad went over to tell her parents off, assess blame, etc.? NO, you know why? Because kids needs to learn that they ARE in fact capable of handling certain situations on their own. There is a certain amount of pride and self-worth that cannot be given to us by our parents, friends, etc. My father knew that by the next day (or at worst the2 days), we'd be back to being best friends again bc that's what kids do!

Sports are by nature, competitive. At least we don't kill our athletes for losing the SuperBowl or the World Series, like other countries! With competition comes loss. It's inevitable. If you seriously think otherwise, you should not allow your child to participate in sports period. Honestly, I do empathize bc I'm one of those people who, when my team wins at a game I'm present for...I'm so super excited and squealing, but when I look at the opposing team, their fans, and family, it does make me sad. Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast. We either have to accept that, learn from our mistakes and grow...or feel sorry for ourselves and our children and overcompensate for their loss. What are you going to do when your child enters the "real world" and effs up and his/her job at some point? YOU can't fix that...but if you've coddled your kids their entire life, they won't have the proper "tools" (so to speak) in their arsenal to be able to handle those situations. Plain and simple.

Finally, even w/o the situation we're talking about w/regards to tumbling deductions and the kid feeling awful bc they feel like they cost the team..it already happens in our world!! Any person who has a tumbling bust or touchdown..any stunt group that has a bobble or fall, any flyer that doesn't lock her knees out, any base that missed her grip on her flyers foot, etc...are all experiencing these situations anyway and frequently. That's where great coaching and real teamwork comes into play. We all know there's no "I" in team..and we must be able to learn how to accept defeat like this from time to time at a young age or else we're screwed when we get older and get bit** slapped by the real world.

Oh and McLovin...there's actually a term for it..it's called "Helicopter Parenting".

 

[Philly Pherocious]

1. you contradicted yourself in the first one... you said what if you land it a hundred times in practice and bust it or touch down in a comp. Its not fair to deduct for that fluke, which I disagree with. If you land a double without finishing your hips then its not a double...its a 1 and 3/4...which is not a double. so no you didn't land a double. And I agree with you, its definitely not safe to do it that way.

2. Kiara Knowlin did freak out and bust. which means on that skill she didn't have perfect technique. She may have perfect technique in every other skill she throws, but on the one you are referring at NCA, no she didn't have perfect technique at that moment. Which was a fluke, just like Alicia Sacromone's fall in the 2008 Olympics, which caused her team to lose the gold medal... Flukes happen but they still cost their team. That's the point.

3. Thats on your coaches head if he tells you to throw a skill that is not ready for a routine. And the team will suffer for that decision. Shortly coaches like that will be looking for a job after repeatedly making poor skill decisions that costed their team and program success (this is my hope). And I believe itll push coaches to be more cautious about adding harder skills.

I think you misunderstood my point on number 1. I definitely think it's fair to deduct for a fluke bust, but not 5 points. I can't imagine a touch down or bust costing more than a stunt fall. I think the bust and touch down deductions should stay the way they are, not eliminated. Yes flukes happen and they cost their team, I just can't see a team with a stunt fall beating a team that had a touch down in jumps to back or standing fulls. My entire point in point one is that making busts/touch downs cost more won't improve technique. There are a couple girls on my team that don't make their hips around, ever, but they land it every time. Should these higher deductions be put into place my coach will still have them throwing their doubles(1 and 3/4) in the routine.

Also, I am aware that was a fluke on Kiara's part. That was my point, that even the best of the best fluke out every once in a while. I'm sure she can land that pass "100/100 times in the gym." (Not quoting you, quoting others.)

I think the fact that injuries are coming from everywhere in the sport is proof enough that level 5 skills don't need to be taken away, technique throughout every level just needs to be improved.