All-Star "name" Of Gym Affecting Placement?

[lakerfantlc]

Deductions at Worlds didn't make much of a difference. The deductions amounts were the same as they were at Varsity events, but Varsity events are out of 100 and Worlds was out of 300, making deductions at Worlds 1/3 of what you are used to.

I didn't see the Small Coed division last year so I can't personally comment on Smoed, but when I've told people about the value of deductions at Worlds they've said the results made sense.

Thank you... Level headedness... I live!!!... :). Btw... Day 2 was painful and Brandon rocked it!!!

 

[socratesofcheer]

i dont think its complaining or whinning about being cheated... u were just talking about putting in the hard work ...period.... ok but the team im on and the other teams in my gym do put in the hard work...we are working just as hard as any other gym..... what exactly defines hard work...sweating?..we all sweat when we work out...the amount of time we spend in the gym??...everyone i know practically lives at our gym....is hard work being knocked down and getting back up??... everyone does this.... so it comes down to ...the name of your gym... like this thread indicates....... we all work hard and put our heart and soul into what were doing...we all understand how hard this sport is and the dedication it takes to want to do this and be successful at it..... so its a huge slap in the face and a disappointment to know that you worked just as hard as Team A u put in the same amount of hours you got knocked down just as much .... and then your told it wasnt"good enough "... when u know theres nothing more you could have done to better prepare.... its completely in the judges hands and if the judges just happen to have a biased favoritism towards gym A.... your screwed

Also talking about seeing the score sheets..... do you know how easy it is to be biased on the score sheet..which in my opinion... is what the problem is you see Team A come out... you know of their reputation ...do u know how easy it is to give team A better scores right off the back just becuase their team A..... it may be hard to swallow but its true... and this is why the score sheets show Team A scoring higher....because they were biased from the begining....they didnt correctly score each team then decide after the division goes " oh we want Team A to win"...they just score it that way to start with ..... its just not right .... We need a universal scoring system..... that IMO would solve a lot of issues

...excuse me .... level 5 worlds teams ...all work hard..... at least the gyms ive been apart of... me as an athlete will not choose to be apart of a gym that i didnt think worked hard .....nd i dont have time to look up specific videos of teams because i have to get to practice ... so u can think what u want im just stating my opinion from experience .....ive been apart of 3 different gyms over my 10 years of all star cheering and this has been happening forever ....not just recently ..... plus you dont know how hard other teams work all you can speak on is the team or gym you come from ...

which is it?

 

[Deleted member 15]

i dont think its complaining or whinning about being cheated... u were just talking about putting in the hard work ...period.... ok but the team im on and the other teams in my gym do put in the hard work...we are working just as hard as any other gym..... what exactly defines hard work...sweating?..we all sweat when we work out...the amount of time we spend in the gym??...everyone i know practically lives at our gym....is hard work being knocked down and getting back up??... everyone does this.... so it comes down to ...the name of your gym... like this thread indicates....... we all work hard and put our heart and soul into what were doing...we all understand how hard this sport is and the dedication it takes to want to do this and be successful at it..... so its a huge slap in the face and a disappointment to know that you worked just as hard as Team A u put in the same amount of hours you got knocked down just as much .... and then your told it wasnt"good enough "... when u know theres nothing more you could have done to better prepare.... its completely in the judges hands and if the judges just happen to have a biased favoritism towards gym A.... your screwed

Also talking about seeing the score sheets..... do you know how easy it is to be biased on the score sheet..which in my opinion... is what the problem is you see Team A come out... you know of their reputation ...do u know how easy it is to give team A better scores right off the back just becuase their team A..... it may be hard to swallow but its true... and this is why the score sheets show Team A scoring higher....because they were biased from the begining....they didnt correctly score each team then decide after the division goes " oh we want Team A to win"...they just score it that way to start with ..... its just not right .... We need a universal scoring system..... that IMO would solve a lot of issues

Hard work isn't a category on any score sheet I've seen. You are scored on the results of the hard work, aka the performance.

A universal score sheet won't have any impact on bias.

 

[FierceinTeal]

I was at a huge Worlds bid comp one time and speaking to a couple of people from 2 diff huge gyms and one of them said..We dont worry about this comp, we all know this one belongs to team A, and the team A person followed by saying haha and we know the next one belongs to you guys...team B. They just thought it was funny and accepted it....and sure enough that's the way it happened

I have seen this happen also. One year Gym A and Gym B both had a team in the same division. They compete against each other 4 times that season. Both teams hit clean routines with no drops every time. Gym B wins by several points 3 of the 4 times (2 before and 1 after). The 1 competition that Gyms A wins happens to be one that is known to be bias toward that gym year after year. After talking to people on Team B they seem to have expected it would happen.

From personal experience I will say there are cetrain gyms that tend to do better at certain competitions than others. Maybe because of bias but it could just be because different companies look for different things.

 

[12mowerd]

um you really didn't need to mention CA everyone knew thats who u were talking about....don't pretend otherwise. who else dropped that many stunts at worlds and finished 2nd? really

which cali team dropped?

 

[yojaehs]

I would say that my gym is fairly well known, when going into a comp I do the best I can as a coach to prepare my team to be as competitive as they can. I will say there is ONLY one category that "we" have control over, that is deductions and that is why win or lose my teams focus in on "0.0" in the deduction category because ultimately there are so many variables that are out of our control but ONLY one that we can. Some judge might not like our uniform "cough, cough" lol others might not like our "style" or whatever of a million different other reasons. Win or lose if we return home with a "0.0" on our score sheet we consider that competition a success. I think too much emphasis is placed on the "win or lose" or the "why/why not". Focus internally and strive to be better. Do I believe it happens, sure but as said before more often than not I do believe that judges try the best they can to get it right regardless of the uniform.

 

[KB_Legend]

Of course everyone sweats and has sore muscles, that means absolutely nothing! I know tons of people who thought they were working as hard as they possibly could, until they went to the new gym and found out they could be doing more! There are plenty of parents and athletes on this message board that I'm sure could attest to that! Here in Atlanta when it drops down to 50 degrees people are freezing, and to them they really DO feel very cold, in chicago or Minnesota 50 degrees might be a nice fall day and don't get cold till its 15-20 degrees, it's all about perspective, you don't know till you've been there! It's also not just about working HARDER it's about working smarter, knowing the best way to do things and attention to detail. I'm sure I've already said it in this thread, but there is a reason why John Wooden, Coach K, Pat Summit, Bill Bellichick, Vince Lombardi, and so many others continue to win year after year with different athletes of all different ability levels.

To say that programs win because of their name (at any kind of half way reputable competition) is uninformed, inflammatory, and EXTREMELY disrespectful to those of us that dedicate our lives to give our athletes the opportunity to be successful. It sounds like most of you who are claiming you only lose to people because of their name can't give any reason why you DESERVE to win other than the fact that you WANT to win. Try reading a score sheet and a rubric and actually understand what the deductions do, how the math works, what skills score in certain ranges, I guarantee you the gyms with the "big name" are already doing that, and THAT'S why they are beating you, not because of the uniform they are wearing. The grass is ALWAYS greener, don't be so closed minded and ignorant to assume your program has it harder, or that it's unfair! You've never been in the meeting with the judges, or competition reps at MULTIPLE major competitions telling you the reason you got a lower score than you feel you deserve because "the judges just expect a little more from your program". Just because YOU personally are not educated enough to understand the placements at a given competition doesn't mean they are wrong or there was any foul play

 

[lakerfantlc]

Of course everyone sweats and has sore muscles, that means absolutely nothing! I know tons of people who thought they were working as hard as they possibly could, until they went to the new gym and found out they could be doing more! There are plenty of parents and athletes on this message board that I'm sure could attest to that! Here in Atlanta when it drops down to 50 degrees people are freezing, and to them they really DO feel very cold, in chicago or Minnesota 50 degrees might be a nice fall day and don't get cold till its 15-20 degrees, it's all about perspective, you don't know till you've been there! It's also not just about working HARDER it's about working smarter, knowing the best way to do things and attention to detail. I'm sure I've already said it in this thread, but there is a reason why John Wooden, Coach K, Pat Summit, Bill Bellichick, Vince Lombardi, and so many others continue to win year after year with different athletes of all different ability levels.

To say that programs win because of their name (at any kind of half way reputable competition) is uninformed, inflammatory, and EXTREMELY disrespectful to those of us that dedicate our lives to give our athletes the opportunity to be successful. It sounds like most of you who are claiming you only lose to people because of their name can't give any reason why you DESERVE to win other than the fact that you WANT to win. Try reading a score sheet and a rubric and actually understand what the deductions do, how the math works, what skills score in certain ranges, I guarantee you the gyms with the "big name" are already doing that, and THAT'S why they are beating you, not because of the uniform they are wearing. The grass is ALWAYS greener, don't be so closed minded and ignorant to assume your program has it harder, or that it's unfair! You've never been in the meeting with the judges, or competition reps at MULTIPLE major competitions telling you the reason you got a lower score than you feel you deserve because "the judges just expect a little more from your program". Just because YOU personally are not educated enough to understand the placements at a given competition doesn't mean they are wrong or there was any foul play

THANK YOU!!!!! wish i could shimmy times 19394958757564...;)

 

[christina3655]

im not saying im only loosing because of a name ... but this thread is about does it happen.. does ur name help u win sometimes... my answer is simply yes it does......

for you to say its disrespectful for me to think that... is cool because its your opinion.....but its disrespectful to think that im not doing the same.... i dedicate my life to cheer and getting better...my coaches and gym owners dedicate themselves to all of our athletes at all levels.... our owners know every single piece of routine of each of our 24 teams and i dont know how they do it... they are all over the place through out the week... we have 4 locations through out southern california and theyre not close to each other....the amount of driving they do every week blows my mind..... its through dedication and the compassion they have for the sport and for our athletes..... i would assume every gym owner whether big or small has this same passion and dedication or else why do it .... why give up time with your family give up weekends stay up long nights.... reviewing videos making changes....i know my coach cant sleep at night if a simple transition is bugging her......

it doesnt matter if your a big or small gym .... i have been apart of both and it happens every where i go .... maybe not so much on the east coast..i dont know im not over there.... i can only speak on what happens here in california....i can go on and on about this but my simple answer is yes it happens.... for whatever reasons i think it happens it doesnt matter ...everyone has their own reasons .... again this is JMO....

but i appreciate your comment and u have a point

 

[AndrewSky]

I think that certain companies respond better to certain gyms choreography and routines. Like - team a and b compete back to back weekends and both weekends hit flawlessly. One week, team a wins, another week, team b wins. I think it's a Universal scoresheet problem...because without one, it leaves stupid arguments like this to get even more blown up.

And honestly meanj, after all the things you have said bashing PCM, it is extremely hypocritical to criticize someone who says something about Cali (which is nice compared to some of your words).
Good luck to PCM, Cali, and any other gym that is going to dominate the floor this season. :)

 

[aggie1983]

I have really tried to stay off of here because I am certain both sides of the main argument here are true, depending on the specific circumstances:
1. Team A won, deserved to win and there are whole lot of sour grapes being spewed.
2. Team A got biased help from the judges.
I feel confident that by and large the first argument is accurate the overwhelming majority of the time. However, human nature being what it is, it would not surprise me if occasionally the second argument is accurate. In my cp's four years of All Star, I can only think of two instances where we truly felt we were robbed. The first I have always tried to shake off as there being something in the other squad's performance that second day that the second panel of judges liked better than the first panel did the first day, oh well. The second instance was much harder to swallow. I think it is much harder to argue about raw scores as judges interpretation of elements and difficulty and overall presentation can be subjective, but deductions seem like they should be cut and dried. The other team from a huge outstanding gym with a well deserved stellar reputation scored slightly higher than we did raw score wise. We had a slight bobble , the other team had two dropped stunts and a tumble bust. Our girls heard the opposing coach ripping his girls to shreds as they left the floor, dropping the F bomb on them and telling them they had lost the comp. Then when results are announced and we are in second, we were stunned. We even had parents of the other team tell us that wasn't right. Turns out we got a 1 point deduction for our bobble and they were given a 1.5 total deduction for their two dropped stunts and tumble bust - how the heck does that compute? Was it a result of "the name", I don't know, but it was very hard to think otherwise. That one loss kept the girls from an undefeated season and unfortunately, those kind of losses really do stick with you. But I will repeat, I think those occurences are few and far between, but I do think they happen.

 

[PCMBelieve:)]

I agree... you may think your being trained hard... but then you go to a different gym and they train much harder... so unless your a gym hopper and you have been with every gym in California... you will never know... I have friends who are on Cali Coed and Cali Elite that I continue to talk too... they tell me how they practice and how many days a week... but i cannot comment on the difference in training between my gym and theirs unless i have experienced it myself. I agree with Christina PCM does train you very hard, and we have very dedicated coaches who put 110% into each routine and most of us on the PCM Worlds teams practically do live in the gym but i also know that the training methods are different between PCM and CA or any other program in California. That's all i want to comment about on this thread... i could go on forever about teams always winning... but i don't want tooo... all i want to say is i love friendly good competition but i also love when teams get competitive it makes it more interesting and it makes you want tooo win hahaha :)

 

[lakerfantlc]

I agree... you may think your being trained hard... but then you go to a different gym and they train much harder... so unless your a gym hopper and you have been with every gym in California... you will never know... I have friends who are on Cali Coed and Cali Elite that I continue to talk too... they tell me how they practice and how many days a week... but i cannot comment on the difference in training between my gym and theirs unless i have experienced it myself. I agree with Christina PCM does train you very hard, and we have very dedicated coaches who put 110% into each routine and most of us on the PCM Worlds teams practically do live in the gym but i also know that the training methods are different between PCM and CA or any other program in California. That's all i want to comment about on this thread... i could go on forever about teams always winning... but i don't want tooo... all i want to say is i love friendly good competition but i also love when teams get competitive it makes it more interesting and it makes you want tooo win hahaha :)

This is in no way a personal attack....but I think you can't possibly know unless you have been at CA as a team member...hearsay is useless...you cant know when there are 5 gyms and you are hearing this info from whoever....and it is a moot point...I hope EVERYONE thinks their gym is best....and I pray everyone teaches and learns that just do your best is the better lesson in it all...Good luck everyone this year!!!!

 

[PCMBelieve:)]

This is in no way a personal attack....but I think you can't possibly know unless you have been at CA as a team member...hearsay is useless...you cant know when there are 5 gyms and you are hearing this info from whoever....and it is a moot point...I hope EVERYONE thinks their gym is best....and I pray everyone teaches and learns that just do your best is the better lesson in it all...Good luck everyone this year!!!!

I agree... yes i have heard but like i mentioned in my post i can't compare as i have not experienced it myself. You basically just repeated what I said... which is fine... as long as we're on the same page ;)

 

[lakerfantlc]

I agree... yes i have heard but like i mentioned in my post i can't compare as i have not experienced it myself. You basically just repeated what I said... which is fine... as long as we're on the same page ;)

oh...my bad..it was a little confusing...:)