All-Star "name" Of Gym Affecting Placement?

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I posted this once, but I am reposting again and I guess this really didn't happen to me?
"I was dropping off a registration to a company once and no one knew that I had come inside. While I was there, discussion was being held about a large program that was unhappy with the results of a recent competition and how they could correct the scores to reflect what that program felt should be the final results because they did not want to lose that many participants. Does it happen? Yes, having worked for an event producer and having been one, yes, it most certainly does. And while I say this, let me also add that there are event producers who do not do this. I suggest you look at where you compete and take everything with a grain of salt"
 
I posted this once, but I am reposting again and I guess this really didn't happen to me?
"I was dropping off a registration to a company once and no one knew that I had come inside. While I was there, discussion was being held about a large program that was unhappy with the results of a recent competition and how they could correct the scores to reflect what that program felt should be the final results because they did not want to lose that many participants. Does it happen? Yes, having worked for an event producer and having been one, yes, it most certainly does. And while I say this, let me also add that there are event producers who do not do this. I suggest you look at where you compete and take everything with a grain of salt"
Best point in regards to this POST!!! Thank you!
 
I posted this once, but I am reposting again and I guess this really didn't happen to me?
"I was dropping off a registration to a company once and no one knew that I had come inside. While I was there, discussion was being held about a large program that was unhappy with the results of a recent competition and how they could correct the scores to reflect what that program felt should be the final results because they did not want to lose that many participants. Does it happen? Yes, having worked for an event producer and having been one, yes, it most certainly does. And while I say this, let me also add that there are event producers who do not do this. I suggest you look at where you compete and take everything with a grain of salt"


I think it is great what you over heard. And yes it does happen. On one team the coaches advised the ep of an error that was made that cause their team to get 2nd (even though they were having an undefeated season). The ep acknowledged that yes there was an error in scoring but also advise they are not changing the decision made. Since that decision was made the team has not been back to the competition. Sad because it is a big end of the season event.
 
I posted this once, but I am reposting again and I guess this really didn't happen to me?
"I was dropping off a registration to a company once and no one knew that I had come inside. While I was there, discussion was being held about a large program that was unhappy with the results of a recent competition and how they could correct the scores to reflect what that program felt should be the final results because they did not want to lose that many participants. Does it happen? Yes, having worked for an event producer and having been one, yes, it most certainly does. And while I say this, let me also add that there are event producers who do not do this. I suggest you look at where you compete and take everything with a grain of salt"

Thank you for posting this.....YES it does happen.....its not imaginary....why are we so afraid to admit it? No one is saying it's the only thing that goes on but if you've been around for a while chances are you've seen it happen. I would also like to add, that I can only speak for the West Coast, never been to the East and so I cant say anything about it.
 
Thank you for posting this.....YES it does happen.....its not imaginary....why are we so afraid to admit it? No one is saying it's the only thing that goes on but if you've been around for a while chances are you've seen it happen. I would also like to add, that I can only speak for the West Coast, never been to the East and so I cant say anything about it.
I think we can all agree that there is nothing that is perfect..the lesson is don't dwell on the "we were cheated" speak....IMO...better to move on and file this into the "lives not always fair" category and move on...hope this thread does too;)
 
To an EXTENT, everyone has the same access to choreographers and music..but factors affect that: money, location, availability, connection.. While it's easy to make the blanket statement 'They only win because of their name', I find it just as easy to make the statement 'Well you COULD have one if you tried harder/were better!' It's easy to give advice from the other end of the spectrum ;)
 
Exactly it's not always fair, thus the reason for asking this question. Ready to move on too:)
 
I'm not saying people won't steal material, because I know they will, but if they like it when they see it and the team doing it originally places well someone who is inclined to do that will likely do it regardless of weather or not they see the actual score. On the other hand, I am confident enough in my coaching ability, and the abilities of every other coach in my gym (and yours for that matter haha) that even if someone steals our stunt/pyramid transition when they see it at a competition they will never be able to do it as well as us simply because we have already been working on it for 6-8 months.

On the big gym wins because of their name topic... I find the whole implication to be pretty insulting quite frankly. As it has been said millions of times on this and various other cheerleading forums the big gym didn't start as a big gym, they got big through hard work and SUPERIOR COACHING! It's easy to make excuses for a loss, especially when your head has been filled with propaganda about the evil big gym, or (as a coach or owner) you are scared of losing your athletes to the gym that beat you. It's much easier to project a short coming onto the judges or politics in general, rather than taking a real honest look at your team and figuring out what your team could have done differently to change the outcome. The only thing you have any control over is your behavior, your abilities, and your preparation, if you honestly believe that if it's neck and neck the coin flip will go to the big gym (which I don't I actually think it goes the other way because we all love the underdog and hate the yankees) then it's your responsibility to remove all doubt and make your team unquestionably better! For some reason everyone will agree that Bill Belichick, Mike Krzyzewski, Pat Summit or whoever else are such great coaches that they can create winners out of any team, myself included, but when a cheerleading team loses the fact that they got out coached never crosses anyone's mind! Judges are biased, the big gyms get an advantage, or those kids are just better "anyone could win with those kids" is all you ever hear! It gets really old! I don't mean that to be insulting to any coaches but everyone always thinks they are already such a great coach that they have nothing to learn, if only they were part of this secret club where you get all the breaks. That's not it... Read a book by one of the legendary coaches (I would recommend John Wooden), talk to coaches from historically successful cheer programs, I find that most coaches are really open and honest about the way their program works, and ultimately WORK HARDER, if you want to beat my team you are going to have to out work us, at least that's the way I see it, and that's hard to do. Sorry for the rant, this is just a touchy subject for me..

As a former all star coach at a tiny gym, you have no idea what it's like to be on the other end of the all star spectrum.

If you somehow think that reputation doesn't play a role in outcomes you have no understanding of the way we as humans operate. I know for 100% fact that USA Gymnastics judges are often swayed by gym name, it has nothing to do with an outright attempt to "screw over" a group of 10 year olds, it has a lot more to do with internally a judge knowing that gym X is always strong, and the coaches are well known and respected and gym Y no one has heard of. That's in gymnastics, where the judging is completely TRANSPARENT.

I'm not going to say that cheer judges set out to unfairly judge a competition (even though at current, a judge or group of judges could throw every division they see without consequence) but the same mindset comes into play. When judging a big name, you're not going to be looking as closely at things like form or jumps because they're from gym X, and gym X is always solid, now I believe that 8 out of 10 times those judges will still watch for those things but not with the same fervor they would watch a relative unknown. When you judge someone you don't know there's a much greater chance to be under the microscope, you have to be perfect to even think about competing.

Which brings me to my next point, you said, among several other insulting things, that big gyms got big because of superior coaching... This leads me to believe you've never been a part of a gym in a town of less that 6,000 people... not children... people. The only way to build a big gym is to win. We both understand that, the only way to win is to be better than your opponent and hope that if they are more respected than you they drop everything and have a few busts too. When that happens, when you have a perfect routine under that microscope thats when a small gym can start to gain a reputation. So not you've got a reputation and you've beaten a rival gym, and now that gym finally considers you a rival, you have to stock your gym with talent so that growth can continue. But here's the new problem, you're located over an hour away from anything that is even close to being considered a city, who are you going to get to come to your gym? The answer, as difficult as it often is for the coaches to swallow, is whoever walks through the door. So when someone says "well anyone could win with those kids" what they may mean is "anyone could win with the talent pool that gym has access to". Because as mean as it sounds there's only so much you can polish crap and when you've run out of polish you've just got shiny crap.

I know that I had shortcomings as a coach, several. But one thing I always did, every single time, was make sure that the score sheet was as maxed as possible. So it wasn't that I had a lack of preparation, or a lack of effort. There were competitions we walked into and were beaten thoroughly, and then there were those competitions we walked into that I believed it would be difficult and all of a sudden a really solid team drops a stunt, their jumps were off and a tumbling pass doesn't land, and if we can just hit everything we have a shot. More often than not when we hit everything and a big gym had several flubs we were still beaten. And often the comments left by judges didn't make sense, one I remember because of it's lack of an explanation was "shakey basket" (yes spelled incorrectly and everything) how the eff is a basket "shakey"? The answer is because we were under a microscope and were a long shot to beat all of those established programs anyway.

As a coach I learned early on that I had to take accountability for my actions, probably more so than most occupations, and I was never afraid to take blame when it was due, one of my very first competitions I lost for my youth squad because we had a legality issue. I misunderstood something in the rule book and without the loss of those points we would have won. As soon as our routine ended the event coordinator came over and told me about or pyramid. As soon as awards ended the parents had questions and everyone of them that asked I told them that I screwed up, I apologized and promised to make it better. And then I did. But those times, when I knew what our routine should have been worth and our performance didn't match our placement it's hard to think that well known gyms don't get the nod every now and then.

Oh and your argument about the great coaches always finding a way to win is really weak, you named coaches in non judged sports, they just have to score more points than the other team they don't have to win the hearts and minds of the ones controlling the score also. I could also talk about your "win with whatever athletes they have" argument as every coach you named has complete control over who plays for them. All those college coaches recruit to fit their systems and Belicheat (known cheater, caught more than once) is also his teams general manager.

I agree that it is too easy to blame things other than your own faults but when objectively examined and nothing else makes sense, bias does.
 
Let's say bias is rampant throughout the judging community. How do you fix it?

Why is it always stated that judges are biased in favor of the big or big named gyms?
 
Shep, just so you are aware I did help start a program before I moved here. It started with one full hard floor, two strips of spring floor, and 40 kids. We had what we had, and there was plenty we didn't have, including equipment, spring floors, room, numbers, and a name anyone had heard of... When I left that program six years later there were well over 400 all star athletes and a booming class program. I DO know what it's like to come from a small gym, just like I know it is possible for that small gym to win, and grow. Don't assume everyone who disagrees with you only disagrees because they don't understand your plight. As far as being in a small town, of course you're never going to be a huge gym if you come from a small town! It's fine if you want to open a gym in a sparsely populated area, but why would you ever expect it to grow to be a large gym if there isn't the demographic to support it? That also implies you have to have huge numbers to be successful, but I think Spirit of Texas, Green Bay Elite, and plenty of others are proof that that's not really the case. I also don't understand why everyone thinks because you are from a recognizable gym the judges want you to win. What gives everyone that impression? Being successful doesn't mean people want you to be successful, quite frankly it's generally the opposite! I'm quite sure there are drastically more people who want to see the Yankees, or Lakers LOSE because they are known for winning all the time. Generally the people on the judges stand are or were from some other program, why would they want their competitors to win if they don't deserve it?
 
Let's say bias is rampant throughout the judging community. How do you fix it?

Why is it always stated that judges are biased in favor of the big or big named gyms?

I believe it has to do with a perceived level of excellence, and the reason the perception is there, is because in large, the gym is excellent. I won't argue that at all. But I feel that little things are often overlooked. The way you fix nearly everything that is wrong with competitive cheer is make scoring transparent. Why wouldn't you? If everything is on the up and up, and you have nothing to hide? Someone said that the comp companies were worried that their judges would be exposed and people wouldn't return, in the long run this would strengthen the sport so much more because of consistency of judging followed by extreme parody in competition. Long story short it would be amazing for the masses and potentially harmful for those currently at the top.

KB_Legend said:
Being successful doesn't mean people want you to be successful, quite frankly it's generally the opposite! I'm quite sure there are drastically more people who want to see the Yankees, or Lakers LOSE because they are known for winning all the time. Generally the people on the judges stand are or were from some other program, why would they want their competitors to win if they don't deserve it?

You couldn't be more wrong:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/979699-the-50-most-popular-teams-in-sports/page/49
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-popular-sports-teams-on-facebook-2011-12#9-new-york-yankees-12
As far as American sports are concerned in the previous links the Lakers and Yankees are either 1-3, the other team in the top 3 are the Boston Celtics, and I'm sure you're aware they have actually won more championships than the Lakers.

Did you even read my post? I don't believe it's always intentional, I never said that. Has anyone ever told you something about someone and you held them in either a higher or lower esteem before you even knew who they were? It's kind of like that. If I counted how many people I just downright hated before I even knew them I wouldn't have some of the best friends I have now, because someone told me something about them... I believe it works the same way both good and bad with cheer. Judges are human and make mistakes why would they suddenly not have preconceived notions? They're human.
 
If you are convinced everyone has preconcieved notions, why are you convinced they are always positive?
 
KB_Legend said:
If you are convinced everyone has preconcieved notions, why are you convinced they are always positive?

With all the drama and bad blood in cheer we see the flip side of this subject also. Last season, WE were accused of being buddies with the judges when we beat a rival gym. We didn't know any of them of course so I literally lol'd. The same team had previously claimed the judges at the last competition hated their coach and that's why they took such a beating. I also heard one of my parents say this to explain a head scratching loss we had. When she said it I told her that I didn't know anyone at the event, she said that didn't mean they didn't know me or knew someone that didn't like me and was biased on their behalf. And now we are really reaching and grasping at straws!

I just hate lame excuses so I try very hard not to entertain anything I can't prove.
 
cupieqt said:
With all the drama and bad blood in cheer we see the flip side of this subject also. Last season, WE were accused of being buddies with the judges when we beat a rival gym. We didn't know any of them of course so I literally lol'd. The same team had previously claimed the judges at the last competition hated their coach and that's why they took such a beating. I also heard one of my parents say this to explain a head scratching loss we had. When she said it I told her that I didn't know anyone at the event, she said that didn't mean they didn't know me or knew someone that didn't like me and was biased on their behalf. And now we are really reaching and grasping at straws!

I just hate lame excuses so I try very hard not to entertain anything I can't prove. I try to make better use of my thinking time.
Edited
 
If you are convinced everyone has preconcieved notions, why are you convinced they are always positive?

shep said:
If I counted how many people I just downright hated before I even knew them I wouldn't have some of the best friends I have now, because someone told me something about them...I believe it works the same way both good and bad with cheer.
 
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