All-Star National Championships Are Won At Tryouts

[King]

Well of course you yell, holler, scream and pull your hair out, if they are driving that slowly in front of you...haha

Haha.

I think this all is a "where you sit depends on where you stand" kinda thing.

 

[King]

Good to know you are only putting it out there to engage us and not figure out to what degree you can sandbag your teams and hide behind the theory of stacking without others looking upon you in a negative way.

As for you reference of past, present , future by response would be you don't make teams based on 5 years down the road. You make them based on the present.





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I don't coach allstars anymore, but when I did at Stingrays I would always hear that 'we' / 'they' sandbagged. Why are they so good or win so much? Because they are sandbagging (as was assumed sometimes). While everyone seems to be able to classify sandbagging as well as they can obscenity ( I know it when I see it - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) I would say if people were able to see the process at which Rays chose its teams was completely on the level and had a very high standard of what can make a team level 2-5 (they take everyone who tries out so obviously level 1 is for if you are completely new). And because the standards are so high (along with great coaching and a fantastic environment where everyone is bred to be as successful as they individually can) they win a lot. And to compete other teams might sandbag. And Rays coaches are told you need to be better than the teams that sandbag. No whining or complaining, just be better.

So I don't so much have a problem with sandbagging because my POV is just be better than those sandbagging. It is that simple.

 

[Cheer Dad]

I am in agreement that it is the fault of those who created the loophole. But why can't people take advantage of loopholes? Before the safety rules were really tightened up we celebrated when TG took advantage of the loopholes.

The TG example is an interpretation of the rules and not dropping a level to be more competitive thereby increasing your chances of winning.


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[mstealtoyou]

Outlast in what way? I said 'tuck' contest. Seriously there is a limit to what one can do and surpassing those limits has no benefit.

You said contest which I took to mean more than 1 tuck. Possibly a who can throw and land the most tucks? I will bet on the kid with the double standing full every time!

 

[cheermomforever]

I have always wondered why a team and or coach would feel proud winning 2 after competing and winning 5? We commented to a coach of a team that could not even warm up due to the majority of his level 2 members were at awards winning level 5 and he said "we did nothing illegal" but is he really proud of that? And if so why?


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[mstealtoyou]

I have always wondered why a team and or coach would feel proud winning 2 after competing and winning 5? We commented to a coach of a team that could not even warm up due to the majority of his level 2 members were at awards winning level 5 and he said "we did nothing illegal" but is he really proud of that? And if so why?


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I guess I need a PM...........lol

 

[King]

I have always wondered why a team and or coach would feel proud winning 2 after competing and winning 5? We commented to a coach of a team that could not even warm up due to the majority of his level 2 members were at awards winning level 5 and he said "we did nothing illegal" but is he really proud of that? And if so why?


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As long as it's not illegal banners on the wall look better than no banners.


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[TheVipersMom]

I don't coach allstars anymore, but when I did at Stingrays I would always hear that 'we' / 'they' sandbagged. Why are they so good or win so much? Because they are sandbagging (as was assumed sometimes). While everyone seems to be able to classify sandbagging as well as they can obscenity ( I know it when I see it - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) I would say if people were able to see the process at which Rays chose its teams was completely on the level and had a very high standard of what can make a team level 2-5 (they take everyone who tries out so obviously level 1 is for if you are completely new). And because the standards are so high (along with great coaching and a fantastic environment where everyone is bred to be as successful as they individually can) they win a lot. And to compete other teams might sandbag. And Rays coaches are told you need to be better than the teams that sandbag. No whining or complaining, just be better.

So I don't so much have a problem with sandbagging because my POV is just be better than those sandbagging. It is that simple.

I love watching rays, we don't see them often but we know the are tough competition and they are so good!


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[AScheer]

Would you consider a team that competes level 2 for the season but at tryouts has 95% level 3 skills across the board and approximately 20% level 5 skills sandbagging, stacking, or neither?

If you choose to be that level then stacking.

So...

A level 5 team competes in level 2 for one competition = sandbagging and not ok.

A level 5 team competes in level 2 for every competition = stacked and it is ok.

I guess I just don't share this mindset!

 

[AScheer]

Let's use a non-cheer example. You have a school that is K-8 that competes in a leveled math bee. The district puts on a math fact contest. Most schools that compete are K-5 but your school is able to compete with students from all grades based on the technicality that schools register, not grades. If the K-8 school competes its 8th graders who have not only mastered the math facts years ago, they also have had years to practice them, who is likely to win? The 5th grader or the 8th grader? Are they doing anything against the letter of the rule? No. Are they going against the spirit of the rule? I think so.
I will gladly take a 3rd place and have CP compete in her "real" level vs a win that is a gimme. Of course, sometimes Karma kicks in and that "shoo-in" doesn't win. I love those comps.

My parents always said they would prefer a hard C over an easy A anyway. I'm beginning to think a lot of people were taught that the easy A mattered more!

 

[SheCheers]

What I don't understand is the contradiction: if everyone is forced to compete the same skill it doesn't matter it's not an advantage, BUT...we are calling the team with over-skilled athletes "stacked" and think it's a great way to be highly competitive and those teams who don't stack their rosters just need to do it the other way so they can be competitive so that there is no longer any advantage to it. Do people HONESTLY believe if two people/teams are competing the same skill there is no advantage to the person/team who has been competing it and perfecting it longer?


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[jcheermom]

Let's use a non-cheer example. You have a school that is K-8 that competes in a leveled math bee. The district puts on a math fact contest. Most schools that compete are K-5 but your school is able to compete with students from all grades based on the technicality that schools register, not grades. If the K-8 school competes its 8th graders who have not only mastered the math facts years ago, they also have had years to practice them, who is likely to win? The 5th grader or the 8th grader? Are they doing anything against the letter of the rule? No. Are they going against the spirit of the rule? I think so.
I will gladly take a 3rd place and have CP compete in her "real" level vs a win that is a gimme. Of course, sometimes Karma kicks in and that "shoo-in" doesn't win. I love those comps.

I think this example is perfect. Earning the win is part of the journey, and the purpose of competition. If you aren't competing on your level, have you really accomplished a goal? Could this be a problem with the mentality now, to do anything it takes to win? Sometimes improvement or accomplishments are better than winning; improving your score, fewer deductions, better placement than ever before, or even accomplishing more from each and every member through teamwork. Maybe you're not breaking any 'rules', but you're not setting a good example of how hard work helps you reach your full potential, physically, mentally, and morally.


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[tumbleyoda]

What I don't understand is the contradiction: if everyone is forced to compete the same skill it doesn't matter it's not an advantage, BUT...we are calling the team with over-skilled athletes "stacked" and think it's a great way to be highly competitive and those teams who don't stack their rosters just need to do it the other way so they can be competitive so that there is no longer any advantage to it. Do people HONESTLY believe if two people/teams are competing the same skill there is no advantage to the person/team who has been competing it and perfecting it longer?


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Where I feel is the contradiction is that people assume that because a gym that is super deep with kids, talent, resources and parents that willingly buy into their higher level athlete competing on a team 2-3 levels below where they are can do it that the gym that doesn't have those things has to be able to do it as well and if they don't, then they are at fault. They point to the rules as you can't do anything higher than a BHS in Level 2 so it is your fault that you are not competitive if you pit an athlete who is only been doing a BHS a year vs an athlete who has been doing a BHS plus much much more for over 5 years. You have set them up to fail. Where gyms that take this viewpoint blame the owners/coaches on not being better salespeople to convince their athletes and parents that if they want to win, this is what they must do to win.

At the end of the day only 1 team can win. 1. Just 1. I do better to set my teams up to hit a clean routine that gets progressively harder throughout the year and have fun doing it, no matter what the placement is. Because even if they hit perfectly and max out the scoresheet, it is still subjective and they may not win because a judge or two simply doesn't like them or know them vs a more well know team that had a few bobbles and issues that quickly become performance errors.

 

[Keep_Believing]

I also think a lot of people think they have all the highest possible level skills for their level when they don't. For example Suzie is a level 4. She has a standing tuck, 2 backhandsprings to a layout, and punch front stepout roundoff backhandspring layout. Yes, she has strong skills, but they go up against another team that has a full team with standing layout step outs and standing layouts, punch front stepout roundoff backhandsrping whip whip layout stepout, x outs, and an onodi. (I haven't actually seen a team like this, but it would be cool!)

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I also think a lot of people think they have all the highest possible level skills for their level when they don't. For example Suzie is a level 4. She has a standing tuck, 2 backhandsprings to a layout, and punch front stepout roundoff backhandspring layout. Yes, she has strong skills, but they go up against another team that has a full team with standing layout step outs and standing layouts, punch front stepout roundoff backhandsrping whip whip layout stepout, x outs, and an onodi. (I haven't actually seen a team like this, but it would be cool!)

Yes. People also tend to zero in on the TUMBLING portion of a level as well.

Levels involve stunting and jumps as well.

Teams will be like "omg SANDBAGGING!" when in reality, the kids on other teams are true L4 in ALL AREAS. Not just piecing together some layouts, tucks, etc.