All-Star National Championships Are Won At Tryouts

[King]

So then it's the fault of EP's to allow teams to drop down during the season. Gyms should have to declare their rosters and levels at the beginning of the season (by August 31st) and they are fixed except for documented medical reasons or a new member joins. Teams must compete at that level all season, including nationals.

I would be completely for that.

 

[King]

currently no. This is why I am a proponent of athlete credentialing.

How would athlete credentialing work?

 

[quitthedrama]

How would athlete credentialing work?

In my perfect world, you would declare a level at the beginning of the season. You have to compete at that level for the season. Given the nature of cheer it would more likely have to be to declare a level and only be able to compete one level higher than that. Each athlete has an ID card with the level credential on it. Nearly every other sport operates this way so I don't buy the argument that it can't be done in cheer.

 

[dawgshow]

Not sure what you mean. If a speed limit was erected that said you can do 100 do you yell at the people who go 95?

Well, I would but I hate slow drivers. What I meant was that it's the fault of whoever wrote it without closing the loophole and it's also the fault of those taking advantage of the loophole.


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[King]

Well, I would but I hate slow drivers. What I meant was that it's the fault of whoever wrote it without closing the loophole and it's also the fault of those taking advantage of the loophole.


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I am in agreement that it is the fault of those who created the loophole. But why can't people take advantage of loopholes? Before the safety rules were really tightened up we celebrated when TG took advantage of the loopholes.

 

[dawgshow]

I am in agreement that it is the fault of those who created the loophole. But why can't people take advantage of loopholes? Before the safety rules were really tightened up we celebrated when TG took advantage of the loopholes.

Because it's not right. I understand we don't agree on that and probably never will.


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[King]

Because it's not right. I understand we don't agree on that and probably never will.


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I think in general we agree at what the end result should be, but disagree where we are now and how we should get there.

 

[dawgshow]

Well if you think that the spirit of the law should be followed and gyms should stop looking for loopholes to go for the easy win, then yes we agree.


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[12stepCheermom]

I feel like we keep recycling these discussions and the arguments never change. People's point of view doesn't change.

1) we all know sandbagging/stacking is legal. The question gets to whether its ethical and no one will ever agree.
2) we all know there are two philosophies at work....a) win at all costs b) win some lose some but stretch the kids potential. No one will ever agree which of those is "correct."


I think the most short sighted argument is the "it doesn't matter what level they are because they can only perform the same skills argument." we all know regardless of skill level you can only compete certain skills at certain levels. That reality negates the whole sandbag argument for some people who don't consider the scoresheet's technique score. Others "get" that a kid with a double full is throwing a technically far superior handspring/tuck/layout than a kid who learned their salto set last week. Just watch my CP... It's a game to him just how high he can set that thing...you can walk under him....and he's 6-1. That will score better than a brand new tuck. My ex-cp actually played that game with her cheerBFF. They had contests to see if they could out set each other.

So yes, they're only throwing the same skill but much like the math example above, the sandbagger will score much higher in technique (shall we resurrect the whole LAG argument from worlds....Rays won on technique, not routine difficulty) which is the only thing that will separate teams that have all choreographed themselves to "get into" the high range. Technique will be what sets them apart (especially in comparative scoring) and a Lv2 team made up of 75% kids throwing all level three skills (with a few lev 5 thrown in for good measure) will score significantly better in tumbling technique than the kids who just posted their first Unspotted handspring to Instagram last week. Same argument can be made for stunts. If a team can throw some great toe touch baskets....a straight ride is going to be higher and tighter than the kid who just figured out how to not jump off the bases arms because at level 1 they never flew a basket before.

Technique wins.

Sandbaggers have technique that only comes with reps, body control and muscle memory new level athletes have not yet developed.

 

[cheernerd5678]

In my perfect world, you would declare a level at the beginning of the season. You have to compete at that level for the season. Given the nature of cheer it would more likely have to be to declare a level and only be able to compete one level higher than that. Each athlete has an ID card with the level credential on it. Nearly every other sport operates this way so I don't buy the argument that it can't be done in cheer.

Would people start declaring themselves a level lower than their skills so they could compete true to level (one up) and at a lower level? Hypothetically, your idea (I think) allows them to compete only up (stretch themselves) and not down, but if they just register at a lower level they can still compete true to level. Unless that wasn't the intent and it was just to limit jumping multiple levels.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Would people start declaring themselves a level lower than their skills so they could compete true to level (one up) and at a lower level? Hypothetically, your idea (I think) allows them to compete only up (stretch themselves) and not down, but if they just register at a lower level they can still compete true to level. Unless that wasn't the intent and it was just to limit jumping multiple levels.

I don't know exactly how it works logistically but I know in travel baseball around here kids are individually credentialed based on their skill set. Teams are built from those kids. (So in cheer terms, you'd build a level three from x number of kids who are credentialed level 3). But the baseball leagues around here also have a cap. If you surpass that cap (I think it's 3-4 kids...keeping in mind baseball only plays 9 kids on the field) that are on that level3 team but are credentialed level4.....they have to play level four. No discussion. So at most you can only have 2-3 Sandbaggers per baseball team until the whole team has to play "up" a level from where those kids are individually credentialed.

No idea why cheer can't do this.

 

[quitthedrama]

Would people start declaring themselves a level lower than their skills so they could compete true to level (one up) and at a lower level? Hypothetically, your idea (I think) allows them to compete only up (stretch themselves) and not down, but if they just register at a lower level they can still compete true to level. Unless that wasn't the intent and it was just to limit jumping multiple levels.

^^ What @12stepCheermom said. Also, if you can only compete 1 level up it may not completely eliminate sandbagging (and I would prefer a rule that you can only compete at one level, but I understand that would be an extremely difficult sell), but it will stop athletes competing level 5 and level 2 during the same competition year. As far as an athlete declaring themselves several levels lower than their skill set - if that is what they want to do then you can't really stop it, but I highly doubt there are many athletes with level 5 skills that want a level 2 declaration on their USASF card.

 

[King]

^^ What @12stepCheermom said. Also, if you can only compete 1 level up it may not completely eliminate sandbagging (and I would prefer a rule that you can only compete at one level, but I understand that would be an extremely difficult sell), but it will stop athletes competing level 5 and level 2 during the same competition year. As far as an athlete declaring themselves several levels lower than their skill set - if that is what they want to do then you can't really stop it, but I highly doubt there are many athletes with level 5 skills that want a level 2 declaration on their USASF card.

Some smaller gyms dont have enough athletes to make a competitive level 5 team. So they create two teams, the athletes compete on a level 2 where they have enough athletes and then a level 5 which is not competitive but allows them to throw their skills. Would the level 5 athletes have to declare the level and would they be able to do that level 2 team? If that happens the small gym will say they are scaring off all their level 5 athletes to other gyms because of this declaration.

 

[Pebbles49]

Not sure what you mean. If a speed limit was erected that said you can do 100 do you yell at the people who go 95?

Well of course you yell, holler, scream and pull your hair out, if they are driving that slowly in front of you...haha

 

[Cheer Dad]

As always, to engage the board :).

If the goal is to win then you cannot worry about side-eyeing. As long as you are competing within the rules than not complying with some arbitrary rule that cannot be defined I don't see what the reason is. 5 years ago having squad handsprings on a level 2 in June was sandbagging. Now you need near that to be competitive. In 5 years the skills needed to be competitive in a level will look like 'sandbagging' now.

Good to know you are only putting it out there to engage us and not figure out to what degree you can sandbag your teams and hide behind the theory of stacking without others looking upon you in a negative way.

As for you reference of past, present , future by response would be you don't make teams based on 5 years down the road. You make them based on the present.





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