All-Star New Nca Rule. No Sandbagging!

[cheerisgood]

Wait, you are telling me the only way a team with 5 fulls was going to be successful was to drop them to level 2? I remember seeing a video of them competing level 5 that season, they weren't bad.

I'm sorry, but your team sandbagged. New coach, old coach....I don't care. They didn't belong in level 2.

sorry, i agree with NJ Coach and have to call BS on this!!! why not drop to level 4? or 3? dropping 3 levels is sandbagging and i'm pretty sure we all know it!!

 

[King]

The issue with sandbagging is one of intention.

If a team is up a level too high to be competitive and they drop because that is a more appropriate level for them I don't consider that sandbagging.

If a team drops down a level at a major competition specifically to win a jacket I consider that sandbagging.

As we cannot tell intentions we need to setup a situation where sandbagging is discouraged. I think NCA is handling it nicely and it is a great start.

 

[purpleblue&white]

Saw it, it happened at JamLive yesterday. A small gym nearby dropped from 4 to 4.2 last minute... and won. It does not seem like much, but it is the point... sandbagged.

 

[tumbleyoda]

The issue with sandbagging is one of intention.

If a team is up a level too high to be competitive and they drop because that is a more appropriate level for them I don't consider that sandbagging.

If a team drops down a level at a major competition specifically to win a jacket I consider that sandbagging.

As we cannot tell intentions we need to setup a situation where sandbagging is discouraged. I think NCA is handling it nicely and it is a great start.

Unfortunately I have experienced this in both scenarios you put out here. As a tumbling coach I was not privy to making the decisions on team movements but I often was informed of the reasons why and of course the fallout.

In the first we tried to go Y5 with kids who had the tumbling (not maxed out but could be competitive on that part of the scoresheet) but could not stunt at that level at all. They just struggled with it. Their first competition they were an absolute wreck in warmups and on the floor. So we watered it down for day two and they did better. The decision was made to compete Y4 the rest of the year and maybe at the end of the year try Y5 again, which they did. However the parents were not happy at all about the decision. In no way IMO was that sandbagging but it was never seen by the other gyms in our community that way. Eventually 16 of the 20 kids on that team took their business elsewhere as soon as they reasonably could so their children could stay Y5 or go to J5 which we did not have at that time.

The second was a true sandbag. Team competed all year for their first time at S5 Small All Girl and dropped two levels for a major national. Technically they were competing a level above their true skill as they would of been a perfect S4 Small all girl team. Again they had good enough tumbling to compete in Level 5 - not necessarily be competitive - and the stunts were getting there. But in that case not wanting to lose those girls to another rival gym forced the owners and head coaches to jump them from Level 3 which they had been the previous season to Level 5. It was well known that if we did not try to offer a level 5 team they would leave. No matter how much people say let them go, when you lose a majority of your top level athletes in a small gym it can about cripple your whole program for many years if not outright destroy it. They also had come off a major win at a major competition in Level 5 only to be told when they did not get a Worlds Bid (when the one of the bids was openly posted and told to go to the winner of Small All Girl) that they were not a true level 5 team but just got lucky to win. All of that combined with the decision to drop them for the next competition which was the major National. IMHO if they dropped, they should of only dropped to Level 4 or not go at all. They didn't win. Major train wreck day 1. Perfect day 2. IIRC 4th place in a stacked division.

Not going at all would of been preferential to all the negativity that has happened because of them dropping 2 Levels. My summation. Don't sandbag. The title, trophy or jacket you may get is not worth the negative press you will get for years after the event is done.

 

[we_stand_alone]

Wait, you are telling me the only way a team with 5 fulls was going to be successful was to drop them to level 2? I remember seeing a video of them competing level 5 that season, they weren't bad.

I'm sorry, but your team sandbagged. New coach, old coach....I don't care. They didn't belong in level 2.

Exactly, i've never seen a team of level 2 athletes that had 5 fulls on it...maybe one running tuck, but not FIVE fulls. That is ridiculous.

 

[ccd1025]

So what level did they compete at prior to and after attending NCA? Unless they competed level 2 at every single comp that year (with the exception of moving to level 3 for maybe 1 or 2 comps at the end of the year) it is still sandbagging and is a bogus win. Enjoy those jackets though.....

Never competed as a level 5 competed as a level 3 but never as a level 5 that season

 

[ccd1025]

Wait, you are telling me the only way a team with 5 fulls was going to be successful was to drop them to level 2? I remember seeing a video of them competing level 5 that season, they weren't bad.

I'm sorry, but your team sandbagged. New coach, old coach....I don't care. They didn't belong in level 2.

I don't remember if it was 4 or 5 fulls but they never competed as a level 5 the 2008-2009 season so it is not Sandbagging. The 2009-2010 season the gym recruited toward a lot of the high schools and competed as a Senior Open Level 5(the second year this division was made) and we had a team compete at NCA. The next year we only had a team of 10 and they competed at level 5 senior open. So they never dropped down. Being a small gym, this was the only senior team that those athletes could compete on for the 2008-2009 season. So the video you saw was probably the next year because they never competed as a level 5 in the 2008-2009 season.

 

[ccd1025]

sorry, i agree with NJ Coach and have to call BS on this!!! why not drop to level 4? or 3? dropping 3 levels is sandbagging and i'm pretty sure we all know it!!

They never competed as a level 5 that season so they were not sandbagging

 

[ccd1025]

Exactly, i've never seen a team of level 2 athletes that had 5 fulls on it...maybe one running tuck, but not FIVE fulls. That is ridiculous.

This was the only senior team offered for those individuals.

 

[Mclovin]

I don't remember if it was 4 or 5 fulls but they never competed as a level 5 the 2008-2009 season so it is not Sandbagging. The 2009-2010 season the gym recruited toward a lot of the high schools and competed as a Senior Open Level 5(the second year this division was made) and we had a team compete at NCA. The next year we only had a team of 10 and they competed at level 5 senior open. So they never dropped down. Being a small gym, this was the only senior team that those athletes could compete on for the 2008-2009 season. So the video you saw was probably the next year because they never competed as a level 5 in the 2008-2009 season.

Wasn't this the same team of 10 that competed as senior 3 at ACP Houston in January?? I remember only because they were so amazing and then had noticed through research that they had been senior open 5 prior to and after that...I could be wrong but I just remember them being WAY too good for a true senior 3.

 

[newcheerdad]

To the original post - I think the idea that's presented is a good start.

Where I disagree with Justin Carrier's response is his implication that preventing sandbagging over a full season is impossible. It isn't. As I've laid out numerous time before, a combination of athlete credentialing and a "majority rule" would take care of this issue.

Basically, my proposal is that all athletes need to be credentialed at a particular level at the start of the season - and that any team that competes at a USASF-sanctioned event must have a majority of their athletes credentialed at the level they wish to compete at. Athletes can change their credentialed level one time per year, and can only move up/down one level.

This would give small gyms flexibility to allow athletes to cross down to lower level teams without allowing them to stock teams unfairly. (it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to have a senior 5 team compete in senior 3 team in this model)

 

[SaraDee023]

i think thats a good rule....keep it fair

 

[ccd1025]

When I said they never dropped down I was referring to the 08-09 season. The team had dropped for that competition due to injuries and they began feeling intimidated being on the mat with only 10 and competing against level 5 teams with 20. Prior to this competition they competed locally as a level 5 and weren't planning on even competing at NCA. After that competition the program decided to compete as a level 5 team at NCA

 

[Mclovin]

When I said they never dropped down I was referring to the 08-09 season. The team had dropped for that competition due to injuries and they began feeling intimidated being on the mat with only 10 and competing against level 5 teams with 20. Prior to this competition they competed locally as a level 5 and weren't planning on even competing at NCA. After that competition the program decided to compete as a level 5 team at NCA

So out of curiosity...why level 3? Why not level 4 which they clearly had the skills for. If I remember correctly, they lost ACP because they didn't forward roll out of the punch fronts, just took a few steps and finished their passes?? Just going off memory here, but clearly that shows their ability to connect the punch front to the rest of their tumbling. I can tell you your squad of 10 would have killed our squad of 20 on our sr. coed 4....

Just noticed that this team placed 3rd at NCA as Small Gym Small Senior Open Coed Level 5 with a score of 86 something....Clearly they didn't need to drop 2 levels.

 

[NJ Coach]

When I said they never dropped down I was referring to the 08-09 season. The team had dropped for that competition due to injuries and they began feeling intimidated being on the mat with only 10 and competing against level 5 teams with 20. Prior to this competition they competed locally as a level 5 and weren't planning on even competing at NCA. After that competition the program decided to compete as a level 5 team at NCA

I'm confused. It's not sandbagging because they never dropped down. But then they only dropped down 1 level (3 to 2). But then they actually did compete as a 5, but only locally.

Their original coach had them as level 5, but the new coach had them as level 2. You're honestly going to say this team didn't drop for an easier shot at jackets? Dropping 1 level is at least understandable, but there's a huge difference in level 5 down to 2. You will never convince me this wasn't sandbagging, nor anyone else who was aware of this whole mess when it happened.