All-Star Religion In The Gym

[mccracal]

@mccracal.
You made some very good points, but the invoking of the so-called separation of church and state always rubs me wrong as it is no where in the Constitution. The 1st amendment guarantees the freedom to practice your religion, not freedom from religion. Atheism and secular humanism are every bit as much a "religion" as Christianity or Hinduism. Religion is just another name for your world view. And your world view/religion necessarily infuses your whole life and cannot be kept in a little box at home when you walk out the door, it is an integral part of who you are. But that does not mean you should beat other people over the head with it - that is a tactic I have never considered persuasive. Live your life so that hopefully others might be drawn to ask about what gives you strength or peace or contentment or whatever.

I think you misunderstood my point about separation of church and state; I know that exact phrasing isn't in the constitution, but rather in letters that Jefferson wrote. However, the essence of the wording of the phrase in the 1st Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" carries the same meaning, which is why the courts have repeatedly ruled against religion in a places such as public schools. And it personally rubs me the wrong way when people say that Atheism is a religion- that's like calling not-stamp collecting a hobby, or calling bald a hairstyle. Religion is certainly a complicated word to define, but it almost always has an inherently spiritual aspect of it. I think religious beliefs are too complicated to simply label as a "worldview"; it's kind of a whole big conglomerate of culture, morals, ethics, etc.I do, however, completely agree with your point about living your life in such a way that inspires others.

 

[canttouchthis]

I think you misunderstood my point about separation of church and state; I know that exact phrasing isn't in the constitution, but rather in letters that Jefferson wrote. However, the essence of the wording of the phrase in the 1st Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" carries the same meaning, which is why the courts have repeatedly ruled against religion in a places such as public schools. And it personally rubs me the wrong way when people say that Atheism is a religion- that's like calling not-stamp collecting a hobby, or calling bald a hairstyle. Religion is certainly a complicated word to define, but it almost always has an inherently spiritual aspect of it. I think religious beliefs are too complicated to simply label as a "worldview"; it's kind of a whole big conglomerate of culture, morals, ethics, etc.I do, however, completely agree with your point about living your life in such a way that inspires others.

done and dead you kill me. like i truly agree with every word your respond with

 

[aggie1983]

But "religion" Is simply that belief set which an individual has based his world view on. My belief set is that there is a creator God. Therefore, there is someone to whom I will ultimately be accountable to. An athiest's belief set is that there is no intelligent design to the universe and that we are born, we live, we die, period, this world is it. An agnostic believes there may be something out there, but we can't know anything about " it". A Hindu believes there is karma to be dealt with in each incarnation. Each of these belief sets impacts how we look at the world, our place in it and our responsibilities and the ultimate impact our decisions will have on us.

 

[cheer8]

i dont have a problem with religious people in fact they are very fun to be with i hate then they try to force there religion down my throat and come knocking on my door. i dont tell people where to pray but its better to keep it in your home in my opinion. thanks.

some opinions should not be posted

 

[Aussiekat]

even better thats like a 3 way gay marriage assuming @BowCat is a boy they have never said

I'm a girl, I'm happy to have two fierce husbands :D

 

[xtremeteal4life]

@mccracal.
You made some very good points, but the invoking of the so-called separation of church and state always rubs me wrong as it is no where in the Constitution. The 1st amendment guarantees the freedom to practice your religion, not freedom from religion. Atheism and secular humanism are every bit as much a "religion" as Christianity or Hinduism. Religion is just another name for your world view. And your world view/religion necessarily infuses your whole life and cannot be kept in a little box at home when you walk out the door, it is an integral part of who you are. But that does not mean you should beat other people over the head with it - that is a tactic I have never considered persuasive. Live your life so that hopefully others might be drawn to ask about what gives you strength or peace or contentment or whatever.

I think you misunderstood my point about separation of church and state; I know that exact phrasing isn't in the constitution, but rather in letters that Jefferson wrote. However, the essence of the wording of the phrase in the 1st Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" carries the same meaning, which is why the courts have repeatedly ruled against religion in a places such as public schools. And it personally rubs me the wrong way when people say that Atheism is a religion- that's like calling not-stamp collecting a hobby, or calling bald a hairstyle. Religion is certainly a complicated word to define, but it almost always has an inherently spiritual aspect of it. I think religious beliefs are too complicated to simply label as a "worldview"; it's kind of a whole big conglomerate of culture, morals, ethics, etc.I do, however, completely agree with your point about living your life in such a way that inspires others.

First, I just wanted to note that it's not just the constitution (or Jefferson's letters, in which I believe he makes crystal clear) that addresses religion or lack thereof in the U.S. Have you ever heard of the Treaty of Tripoli? Only 10 years after our constitution was enacted, one of our founding fathers (John Adams) made it crystal clear in article 11 that we aren't a country founded on Christianity. It was ratified unanimously by the senate. Article 11 states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/treatytripoli.htm
In addition, while many of our founding fathers were deeply spiritual, a good many of them were actually deists and actually despised Christianity and dogmatic aspects of any religion. Most people mistakenly think that we were founded as a Christian nation, but we weren't.

Also, @aggie1983...how do you figure Atheism to be considered a religion? In no such way does it really qualify as a religion. In a VERY broad sense, you could say it's part of ones worldview, but that doesn't make it a religion. A religion adheres to certain beliefs based on things like faith, certain tenants to be followed, certain religious practices, etc. The "technical" definition of religion:
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

But "religion" Is simply that belief set which an individual has based his world view on. My belief set is that there is a creator God. Therefore, there is someone to whom I will ultimately be accountable to. An athiest's belief set is that there is no intelligent design to the universe and that we are born, we live, we die, period, this world is it. An agnostic believes there may be something out there, but we can't know anything about " it". A Hindu believes there is karma to be dealt with in each incarnation. Each of these belief sets impacts how we look at the world, our place in it and our responsibilities and the ultimate impact our decisions will have on us.

Again refer to my earlier statement about religion.

Also, your definitions and/or depictions of Atheism and Agnosticism are completely incorrect. Atheism is simple terms literally means lack of belief in a supreme being/beings. However, many Atheists tend to hold the position that if there was proof of a supreme being, they would not reject it. However, since no such proof exists yet, they continue to lack belief in a supreme and or supernatural being/beings. There are also different "technical" forms of Atheism, which branch off into the adherence of certain beliefs and/or philosophies that are much more complex than just a lack of belief in a god, as most people think. For example, you can be both an Atheist and Buddhist, or Wiccan and Atheist, Jainism and Atheist, etc. So some people who are Atheist, are in fact, spiritual contrary to popular belief.

As far as Agnosticism, similar concepts apply. Agnosticism simply means "I don't know and I can't be 100 percent sure if a god, deity, supreme being, etc. exists". Many of them adhere to the same beliefs as Atheists, if there is proof of a supreme being/beings, they would believe. A lot of people who are in the "I don't know, but tend to lean to the side of there being something else in the universe" consider themselves Agnostic; however in the strictest technical definition of the word, that wouldn't be correct. Agnostics also have different technical forms similar to Atheists depending on their particular viewpoint. Many Atheists actually consider Agnostics to be the same..since they lack the belief in the absence of proof. However, I do know that many people who are in the "I don't know for sure but I think there's something else" bunch who consider themselves Agnostic.

 

[King]

i think its legal @kingston will officiate but i want the pretty bow with the roses.

if he is even willing to touch this thread hahah

this is a tough one. religion is one of those things that has a bounty of people willing to share... but a scarce few willing to listen. it's probably better i keep my opinions out on this one because i tend to ask more questions than i have answers for.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Beat me to the Merriam-Webster punch.. :cool:

Might I suggest everyone read Dante's Infero/The Divine Comedy? It's fascinating to read Dante's concept of faith and spirituality, plus how sins are categorized. Bit gruesome at times but I think it's worth it, particularly if you get a good translation.

 

[canttouchthis]

some opinions should not be posted

and who should be the decider of that? im not slandering anybody and for that i can post whatever i deem necessary

 

[aggie1983]

@extremeteal4life

Actually my definitions are fine: per Webster
Atheist: "one who BELIEVES there is no deity"
Agnostic: " one who holds the view that any ultimate reality ( as God) is unknown and probably unknowable"
Religion: "A PERSONAL SET or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs and practices"
- "any system of BELIEFS, practices, ethical values, etc....as, humanism is his religion." (emphasis mine)

That translation of the Treaty of Tripoli has often been used as you are using it. However, those words actually do not appear at all in the Arabic original version nor do they appear in the renegotiated Treaty of 1805. But if you want to talk treaties, the Treaty of 1814 between the US, Great Britain and Ireland opens with "In the name of the Most Holy and Indivisible Trinity"

John Adams wrote to Jefferson in 1813 "The general Principles on which the Father's achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which that ... assembly of young gentlemen could unite....and what were those general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity".

This thread has strayed far afield from the original intent. My bottom line is:
1. If a gym is upfront that it has a Christian base, then by all means pray.
2. If a gym does not have as part of it's philosophy a Christian attitude than I think a coach should ask parents at the beginning if there would be a problem with team prayer, if any object, don't do it (but don't stop cp's who wish to pray themselves or in small groups)

I do believe there exists a preponderance of evidence both for the existence of God and for the founding of this nation as a Christian nation. However, I absolutely affirm that the 1st Amendment's purpose in not establishing a STATE religion gives every person the right to worship, or not, as they see fit. But I strenuously object to those who would try to impose secularism as the "state religion" as that
intent was clearly not there either.

 

[PghxCheer2]

@mccracal I agree with a lot of what you said in my post, and I enjoyed the article. (I'm in college though, not high school;)) The reason I don't fight with people believing something else is exactly what you said. I'm not confident in my knowledge of the bible and other things, so I don't feel the need to challenge some other person's views about it. I'm taking a Philosophy class next semester and I'm extremely excited. I like to learn about other religions because I think it challenges my own beliefs, forcing me to dig deeper into finding out why it is I believe what I believe. One of my favorite sayings about religion is "There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt." I believe it is human nature to doubt the beliefs of something like religion. To me, there must be SOME underlying doubt in even the "highest" of Catholics. Why else would the most powerful telescopes in the world lie in the hands of the Vatican Observatory?

That being said, I still disagree with parts. While some things may not have been founded on an overall vote of yes/no, for a bill to be passed it must first get a majority vote by the HoR, then by the Senate, and then is moved onto the president where he can pass it to become a law, or veto it back to the HoR. Even if he vetoes it, if 2/3 of Congress approves the bill it will become a law. So actually, MANY of our federal laws were brought about by a "majority rules" vote. It's a huge debate with the current health care bill.

And on the lighter side of things, all this atheist talk reminded me of a hilarious skit by Dane Cook I once watched. Fast forward to about 4:10 and it starts getting relevant to what we're discussing. And if you were raised Catholic, or know anything about the Catholic religion, I would recommend checking out his other skit "Christ Chex". That is, only watch these if you can take a joke.;)

(Love the video... bit old for this section of the board. Sorry. -Kingston)

 

[Mclovin]

Ok. Just one thing I want to say, and I'm going to try and say it as respectfully as possible....

You, (meaning anyone) cannot ask me to keep my relationship with Jesus Christ (notice I didn't say religion because there's a difference between a religion and a relationship ;) ) to myself and then walk around openly living your anti-christian life in front of me. You can't have it both ways. If you want to live an openly athiest/agnostic life in front of me, then I have the right to live an openly christian life in front of you. Does that make sense? That is really the only thing that bothers me about people who are openly anti-christian. They tell me to keep my beliefs to myself but then walk around living their anti-christian lives in front of me. Again, God gave all of us the right to be free moral agents. You live your life the way you want, and I'll live mine the way I want. But as someone mentioned above, when you believe something with all of your heart, soul, mind and body, it's hard not to want to shout it from the rooftops. And I suppose that goes both ways. :)

 

[lakerfantlc]

First, I just wanted to note that it's not just the constitution (or Jefferson's letters, in which I believe he makes crystal clear) that addresses religion or lack thereof in the U.S. Have you ever heard of the Treaty of Tripoli? Only 10 years after our constitution was enacted, one of our founding fathers (John Adams) made it crystal clear in article 11 that we aren't a country founded on Christianity. It was ratified unanimously by the senate. Article 11 states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/treatytripoli.htm
In addition, while many of our founding fathers were deeply spiritual, a good many of them were actually deists and actually despised Christianity and dogmatic aspects of any religion. Most people mistakenly think that we were founded as a Christian nation, but we weren't.

Also, @aggie1983...how do you figure Atheism to be considered a religion? In no such way does it really qualify as a religion. In a VERY broad sense, you could say it's part of ones worldview, but that doesn't make it a religion. A religion adheres to certain beliefs based on things like faith, certain tenants to be followed, certain religious practices, etc. The "technical" definition of religion:
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

Again refer to my earlier statement about religion.

Also, your definitions and/or depictions of Atheism and Agnosticism are completely incorrect. Atheism is simple terms literally means lack of belief in a supreme being/beings. However, many Atheists tend to hold the position that if there was proof of a supreme being, they would not reject it. However, since no such proof exists yet, they continue to lack belief in a supreme and or supernatural being/beings. There are also different "technical" forms of Atheism, which branch off into the adherence of certain beliefs and/or philosophies that are much more complex than just a lack of belief in a god, as most people think. For example, you can be both an Atheist and Buddhist, or Wiccan and Atheist, Jainism and Atheist, etc. So some people who are Atheist, are in fact, spiritual contrary to popular belief.

As far as Agnosticism, similar concepts apply. Agnosticism simply means "I don't know and I can't be 100 percent sure if a god, deity, supreme being, etc. exists". Many of them adhere to the same beliefs as Atheists, if there is proof of a supreme being/beings, they would believe. A lot of people who are in the "I don't know, but tend to lean to the side of there being something else in the universe" consider themselves Agnostic; however in the strictest technical definition of the word, that wouldn't be correct. Agnostics also have different technical forms similar to Atheists depending on their particular viewpoint. Many Atheists actually consider Agnostics to be the same..since they lack the belief in the absence of proof. However, I do know that many people who are in the "I don't know for sure but I think there's something else" bunch who consider themselves Agnostic.

My brother does this to me....hits me with all this "research" and spin...and this is what I told him.....at the end of the day...I love you and I respect your beliefs or non beliefs and I ask that you respect mine..(he thinks we Christians walk around brainlessly following a false God) that a child can come from something as small as a pin head...that I have eye brows (purpose)...that the world flows in balance...that I take air....I just cannot perceive this to come from a "BANG" in the sky....there is purpose EVERYWHERE...anyhoo.....when I am dead...if you are correct...I will just be a dead carcass in the dirt and I have lived my life honestly and morally for which I will have no regret.....what if Im right and you die?

 

[Mclovin]

My brother does this to me....hits me with all this "research" and spin...and this is what I told him.....at the end of the day...I love you and I respect your beliefs or non beliefs and I ask that you respect mine..(he thinks we Christians walk around brainlessly following a false God) that a child can come from something as small as a pin head...that I have eye brows (purpose)...that the world flows in balance...that I take air....I just cannot perceive this to come from a "BANG" in the sky....there is purpose EVERYWHERE...anyhoo.....when I am dead...if you are correct...I will just be a dead carcass in the dirt and I have lived my life honestly and morally for which I will have no regret.....what if Im right and you die?

Shimmy times 1,000,000,000!! :)

 

[lakerfantlc]

Ok. Just one thing I want to say, and I'm going to try and say it as respectfully as possible....

You, (meaning anyone) cannot ask me to keep my relationship with Jesus Christ (notice I didn't say religion because there's a difference between a religion and a relationship ;) ) to myself and then walk around openly living your anti-christian life in front of me. You can't have it both ways. If you want to live an openly athiest/agnostic life in front of me, then I have the right to live an openly christian life in front of you. Does that make sense? That is really the only thing that bothers me about people who are openly anti-christian. They tell me to keep my beliefs to myself but then walk around living their anti-christian lives in front of me. Again, God gave all of us the right to be free moral agents. You live your life the way you want, and I'll live mine the way I want. But as someone mentioned above, when you believe something with all of your heart, soul, mind and body, it's hard not to want to shout it from the rooftops. And I suppose that goes both ways. :)

not to be sarcastic...but AMEN!!!!!.....;)