All-Star Religion In The Gym

[PghxCheer2]

haha @lakerfantlc you are easily on your way to my vote for "Best Newbie" for the FBA this year! I love all your posts!!!!

 

[aggie1983]

Blaise Pascal ( French physicist, mathematician and philosopher) formulated what has been called Pascal's Gambit or Wager: A rational person should wager as though God exists and live his life accordingly because he has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[Of course then we can get into "what definition of God". (please no)]

Just throwing out some trivia because @lakerfanatic's post brought it to mind.

Addendum: religion/worldview is such a hot button topic because it is so fundamental to our core, it shapes our thoughts, beliefs and actions. If we can be respectful of each other's different beliefs we will all be better off, but when you truly believe someone is going down the wrong road it is difficult to not want to stop them. But I realize as I type these words that my definition of the wrong road is based on my worldview.
It is the same with politics, while we should be able to discuss it civilly, when you believe one side's goals for the country are wrong and will hurt this country it is hard not to scream "are you crazy ". - and they would want to scream the same thing at me. .

 

[lakerfantlc]

haha @lakerfantlc you are easily on your way to my vote for "Best Newbie" for the FBA this year! I love all your posts!!!!

awe.....blushing... thank you my dear...at my age....newbie is like getting carded...new anything gets a hug....yay!!!!

 

[lakerfantlc]

Blaise Pascal ( French physicist, mathematician and philosopher) formulated what has been called Pascal's Gambit or Wager: A rational person should wager as though God exists and live his life accordingly because he has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Just throwing out some trivia because @lakerfanatic's post brought it to mind.

Addendum: religion/worldview is such a hot button topic because it is so fundamental to our core, it shapes our actions. If we can be respectful of each other's different beliefs we will all be better off, but when you truly believe someone is going down the wrong road it is difficult to not want to stop them. But I realize as I type these words that my definition of the wrong road is based on my worldview.
It is the same with politics, while we should be able to discuss it civilly, when you believe one side's goals for the country are wrong and will hurt this country it is hard not to scream "are you crazy ". - and they would want to scream the same thing at me. .

agree...and yet...all the PC in the world...sometimes makes me crazy...stop being offended...put on your big people panties and move on....how is it that the word God can upset so many people? If you are a non believer...it's just a word... SMH

 

[F!ERCE]

Approaching this again from an "outsider" (non-Christian) perspective, I don't think I would ever be upset if I saw a couple teammates engaging in prayer (whether it be Christian prayer, Islamic prayer, Hindu prayer, or if your greater deity is Ronald McDonald). Anyone can believe/act whatever and however they'd like; anyone has as much right to say "I'm going to pray" as I do to say "I'm not going to to pray" in any situation.

However, I don't think this should be a majority-dictated thing; it should be unanimous. Isn't the point of getting in a circle and praying to bring the team together as one, as a family, as a unit, etc? Isn't it so you can perform your best, focus and reinforce the bond you have? So what does it say when you say "we're all going to pray to God/Allah/the Heavenly Burger King, but you don't believe in that, so I guess you can go stand over there"? Even if it is indirect, non-religious kids can very easily feel isolated like this when a faith-specific prayers are said as a team...and they don't belong to that faith. Does that make sense?

I think it would be easy to relay approximately the same message of a pre-competition prayer without it having to be faith-specific. The last thing you want before a performance is a kid feeling like they aren't part of the team for any reason. Again, I have no problems with anyone doing their thing by themselves or in small groups...but when it is supposed to be a team activity, everyone should be comfortably included. Ya feel me?

ETA: At a gym like T&S, I wouldn't expect this to happen, though. If you're already openly Christian from the get-go, I wouldn't expect to walk in and have that change for me. I wouldn't walk into a Republican Debate as a Liberal Democrat and ask them to speak as Moderates for my sake. But if it is just your average-everyday-we're-here-to-cheer gym, this requires more adjustion and adaptation.

 

[PghxCheer2]

My whole thing about the "majority rules" thing is this: If you have a small team, you have 20 athletes. 15 of those athletes enjoy the "prayer circle" and 5 have a problem with it. If the coach continues to encourage the prayer circle at the end of practice, you are now isolating the 5 athletes that don't want to do it. BUT if the coach discourages it, could that not easily lead to the 15 other athletes becoming unhappy that their 5 teammates disrupted this tradition? This is all based on the assumption that they've been doing this since the beginning of the season, also. If this is just some random act that has sprung up within the last month or so, I understand why the parents would be unhappy. But if they are just becoming concerned about it now, 7 months into the season, I really think they're just being difficult. If somebody pronounces or uses a word incorrectly in front of you 100 times, then you make a deal out of it the 101st time, that's not their problem and they didn't deserve an outburst from you. If you were unhappy with the way they used it or pronounced it, correct them the first time before it becomes a problem.

If it's closer to a "50/50" majority (11 want it, 9 don't) then I don't even see why it's an issue because that completely defeats the "you're alienating the non-participators" argument because it's much more even. The 11 can go pray and the 9 don't have to because they have 8 other people to do whatever it is they would do instead.

 

[cheer8]

and who should be the decider of that? im not slandering anybody and for that i can post whatever i deem necessary

You are right, keep posting

 

[cheer8]

You are right, keep posting

from your information on this board just remember how you feel when someone thinks a belief or ways you have should be kept at home and not in public
Even though I am not I would stick up for you and others. Think about it!

 

[F!ERCE]

My whole thing about the "majority rules" thing is this: If you have a small team, you have 20 athletes. 15 of those athletes enjoy the "prayer circle" and 5 have a problem with it. If the coach continues to encourage the prayer circle at the end of practice, you are now isolating the 5 athletes that don't want to do it. BUT if the coach discourages it, could that not easily lead to the 15 other athletes becoming unhappy that their 5 teammates disrupted this tradition? This is all based on the assumption that they've been doing this since the beginning of the season, also. If this is just some random act that has sprung up within the last month or so, I understand why the parents would be unhappy. But if they are just becoming concerned about it now, 7 months into the season, I really think they're just being difficult. If somebody pronounces or uses a word incorrectly in front of you 100 times, then you make a deal out of it the 101st time, that's not their problem and they didn't deserve an outburst from you. If you were unhappy with the way they used it or pronounced it, correct them the first time before it becomes a problem.

If it's closer to a "50/50" majority (11 want it, 9 don't) then I don't even see why it's an issue because that completely defeats the "you're alienating the non-participators" argument because it's much more even. The 11 can go pray and the 9 don't have to because they have 8 other people to do whatever it is they would do instead.

But why would you want to divide your team like this? Why do certain athletes get to be more of a part of the team because of something that has absolutely nothing to do with the team? If it were something that the "outsider" athlete could adapt to - like 19 athletes want a black t-shirt and 1 wants a white - that would be different, but there is no way you can ask an athlete to "suck it up" (per se, not saying you implied this) in a situation dealing with their moral/ethical ideas because most of the team disagrees.

The argument that it's "late in the season" is silly, to me...situations change over time, the athlete may have been uncomfortable saying something before, it may become more bothersome to someone over time, etc etc etc.

You can't demand that those 15 athletes don't pray to accomodate the other 5, but it sure would be beneficial to your team dynamic to suggest an alternative that everyone can participate in.

I know I'm going to be in the minority here - which I am totally comfortable with - but I have been the "little guy" in this sort of situation before and wish it had gone a different way.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

@mccracal I agree with a lot of what you said in my post, and I enjoyed the article. (I'm in college though, not high school) The reason I don't fight with people believing something else is exactly what you said. I'm not confident in my knowledge of the bible and other things, so I don't feel the need to challenge some other person's views about it. I'm taking a Philosophy class next semester and I'm extremely excited. I like to learn about other religions because I think it challenges my own beliefs, forcing me to dig deeper into finding out why it is I believe what I believe. One of my favorite sayings about religion is "There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt." I believe it is human nature to doubt the beliefs of something like religion. To me, there must be SOME underlying doubt in even the "highest" of Catholics. Why else would the most powerful telescopes in the world lie in the hands of the Vatican Observatory?

That being said, I still disagree with parts. While some things may not have been founded on an overall vote of yes/no, for a bill to be passed it must first get a majority vote by the HoR, then by the Senate, and then is moved onto the president where he can pass it to become a law, or veto it back to the HoR. Even if he vetoes it, if 2/3 of Congress approves the bill it will become a law. So actually, MANY of our federal laws were brought about by a "majority rules" vote. It's a huge debate with the current health care bill.

And on the lighter side of things, all this atheist talk reminded me of a hilarious skit by Dane Cook I once watched. Fast forward to about 4:10 and it starts getting relevant to what we're discussing. And if you were raised Catholic, or know anything about the Catholic religion, I would recommend checking out his other skit "Christ Chex". That is, only watch these if you can take a joke.

(Love the video... bit old for this section of the board. Sorry. -Kingston)

That was the first time in years (I'm dead serious) I laughed so hard I cried...(the Dane Cook part talking about being raised Catholic and the Christ Chex). I also loved his skit about the Atheist and the sneezing.... I don't know if you've seen that one or not, but it's really funny too. I thought the eventual punchline was great.

 

[PghxCheer2]

That was the first time in years (I'm dead serious) I laughed so hard I cried...(the Dane Cook part talking about being raised Catholic and the Christ Chex). I also loved his skit about the Atheist and the sneezing.... I don't know if you've seen that one or not, but it's really funny too. I thought the eventual punchline was great.

hahahahaha the atheist video was the video that King removed from the post! Great minds think alike I guess

 

[xtremeteal4life]

My brother does this to me....hits me with all this "research" and spin...and this is what I told him.....at the end of the day...I love you and I respect your beliefs or non beliefs and I ask that you respect mine..(he thinks we Christians walk around brainlessly following a false God) that a child can come from something as small as a pin head...that I have eye brows (purpose)...that the world flows in balance...that I take air....I just cannot perceive this to come from a "BANG" in the sky....there is purpose EVERYWHERE...anyhoo.....when I am dead...if you are correct...I will just be a dead carcass in the dirt and I have lived my life honestly and morally for which I will have no regret.....what if Im right and you die?

I think those type of Atheists and/or Agnostics are just as bad as the people who attempt to shove any religion down someone's throat and who also judge you right out of the box if you so much as say you aren't a Christian and/or believe in God. See, there is already a misunderstood preconceived judgement regarding me based upon a couple of replies on a forum (in which I've never stated my religious or non religious beliefs) and there's the immediate defensiveness and assumptions by believers. Notice I've never once commented directly about a single member's religious beliefs in any negative way, yet I get immediately judged and assumed...AND I wind up getting someone else questioning what they perceive to be my beliefs based upon their assumption of my religious affiliation. How very interesting....

For the record, I was raised a Southern Baptist and my husband's father is an ordained minister for born again believers. I had to go to church every Sunday and very often regular Wednesday's since I was a very little child, up until I was 17. I have read the Bible in its entirety twice. I have also been immensely educated regarding numerous religions. Neither my husband or I currently hold any religious affiliations, but considering we both grew up in heavily Christian environments and our parents are staunch believers, we are still capable of respecting (to the utmost) any persons of any religious affiliation. My mother died a Christian and her belief in God helped her battle a very severe cancer for numerous years. I saw how much it helped her and meant to her, so I am not as ignorant as simply thinking believers are stupid (as you mentioned about your brother). I understand one of most humans basic needs require some type of belief. I only have a problem when you (collectively, not you specifically) start excluding others based upon their beliefs bc they're not similar, or bc they're gay, etc., and when it starts to divide families, countries, cause wars, genocide, etc. I've never considered the notion that any religion should be anything but peaceful...it's hard to conceive sometimes that religion has caused so many terrible things bc I prefer to associate them w/peacefulness (since most of their sacred texts advocate it)

 

[xtremeteal4life]

hahahahaha the atheist video was the video that King removed from the post! Great minds think alike I guess

Oh you posted that video? I wonder why he removed it....I don't recall it having any foul language (but I could very well be wrong bc it's been a while since I've seen it).

 

[PghxCheer2]

@F!ERCE I think our views our probably indicative of our personalities as much as they are of our own beliefs. You seem like a leader, and I'm not afraid to admit I'm more of a follower. I just sort of "go with the flow" and let everything roll off my shoulders type of person. You seem fairly passionate about this, and are simply standing up for something you believe in. Without "you's" there is nobody to follow, and without "me's" there is nobody for you to lead. I guess after all this I realized I need to know more about the situation to really decide what is "right". Are the parents the usual suspects in controversy within the gym? Did the gym make even a small notion that they have a catholic influence? etc, etc.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

Ok. Just one thing I want to say, and I'm going to try and say it as respectfully as possible....

You, (meaning anyone) cannot ask me to keep my relationship with Jesus Christ (notice I didn't say religion because there's a difference between a religion and a relationship ) to myself and then walk around openly living your anti-christian life in front of me. You can't have it both ways. If you want to live an openly athiest/agnostic life in front of me, then I have the right to live an openly christian life in front of you. Does that make sense? That is really the only thing that bothers me about people who are openly anti-christian. They tell me to keep my beliefs to myself but then walk around living their anti-christian lives in front of me. Again, God gave all of us the right to be free moral agents. You live your life the way you want, and I'll live mine the way I want. But as someone mentioned above, when you believe something with all of your heart, soul, mind and body, it's hard not to want to shout it from the rooftops. And I suppose that goes both ways.

The problem I have w/this is that MANY (actually most) atheists and/or agnostics do not "openly live" as one to the majority of the public for fear of being ostracized. If you only knew how many kept it to themselves and never say a word to Christians (or any other religion) for fear of ridicule and judgment (which ironically enough isn't condoned in the Bible). People immediately associate them as being amoral, which is so inherently wrong I can't even begin to talk about it. I don't know many Bill Maher "types" of atheists and/or agnostics (whom you would probably consider"anti Christian"), but as I've already stated in my other reply, I believe those people (who are far and few between comparatively I might add...just saying) are just as wrong as I believe people should at least respect others' religious beliefs, cultural beliefs, etc.