All-Star Religion In The Gym

[aggie1983]

@Fierce


Yipes, I left my above response unfinished and came back to it and so didn't see this. I know you said "this is not as serious" but good grief. You cannot compare in any way asking someone to sit through a prayer with sexual harassment or not challenging racist comments. A little proportion please.

 

[lollypop]

Coming from a home where religion wasn't part of my upbringing, attending schools with no religious affiliation (and a mother who had me actively not participate in the schools Religious Education - where I would go to another class room with a couple of other kids, mainly who were of a differing religion to the one being taught), and from living within a society and social circle where religion has been a minor occurrence in my life, I would be surprised and put off if I were part if a team that prayed. If it had marketed itself as a gym with a strong religious affiliation that would not be the case of course, but in any other gym I would be absolutely baffled as to why it was relevant. I've always perceived religion as a private aspect of ones lives and would not be comfortable with it being introduced, even in a non denominational manner as a set part of what I view as a distinctly separate activity. Also having been in a way the kid who stands to the side during religious activities, I find it makes me feel ostracised and uncomfortable and I don't think a team prayer is more valuable than letting the whole team feel included when undertaking an activity that has nothing to do with a persons religion. Just like if I had signed up for a painting class and at some point within it the whole class had to do conditioning, I would be perplexed as to why we were praying during cheer, instead of cheering.

This is in no way saying that praying during training is wrong, just that coming from my background and country and upbringing it's a peculiar occurrence. Not adding to the debate, just to the variety of opinions and experiences :)

 

[mccracal]

Blaise Pascal ( French physicist, mathematician and philosopher) formulated what has been called Pascal's Gambit or Wager: A rational person should wager as though God exists and live his life accordingly because he has everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[Of course then we can get into "what definition of God". (please no)]

Just throwing out some trivia because @lakerfanatic's post brought it to mind.

Addendum: religion/worldview is such a hot button topic because it is so fundamental to our core, it shapes our thoughts, beliefs and actions. If we can be respectful of each other's different beliefs we will all be better off, but when you truly believe someone is going down the wrong road it is difficult to not want to stop them. But I realize as I type these words that my definition of the wrong road is based on my worldview.
It is the same with politics, while we should be able to discuss it civilly, when you believe one side's goals for the country are wrong and will hurt this country it is hard not to scream "are you crazy ". - and they would want to scream the same thing at me. ;).

This is kind of off topic to the original point of the thread, but the Pascal's Wager train of thought has always irked me. What bothers me is the whole idea that anyone can be expected to just "believe" in a god. For belief in any sort of god, it's necessary to have some sort of faith. Yet a lot of religious people will tell you, and rightly so, that it's impossible to make anyone have faith. For a great many people who can only base their beliefs on reason and what has been empirically demonstrated, it's simply not possible to will oneself to "believe" in something in such a manner. Pascal's Wager doesn't take this into consideration, and implies that even if you can't believe, you should just pretend to. The last time I checked, most all knowing, perfect gods don't look too kindly upon liars; it seems that pretending to believe in something you don't is one of the most inauthentic ways to live. One who just lives as if God exists without actual conviction in such a belief is living in utter denial of their actual belief system and sense of self; I certainly wouldn't call that having "nothing to lose". Perhaps the more honest nonbeliever would be looked upon more favorably in God's eyes.

Anyway, sorry this isn't necessarily relevant to the original function of this topic, it just bothers me when I hear people (in general, not saying the person I'm responding to has said this here) saying that it's some athlete's personal problem if they "choose" not to believe in a certain religion, because beliefs and ethics are a lot more complicated than that. There's also the whole issue of "choice" with regards to an omniscient God and free will, along with a slew of other philosophical issues that I would love to discuss in response to some posts I've seen here, but I know this thread has already gotten sufficiently off topic without those tangents haha.

 

[PghxCheer2]

Sort of unrelated to the topic, but why do so many parents have a problem with their children learning about a religion when they don't even have one to call their own? To me, I support any religion that makes somebody a better person. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the one common thing in every religion lies in that they aim to better themselves to please their Higher Power(s). The only thing I've gathered from the people who claim to be "non-practicers" of any religion is that they view any form of public prayer, regardless of the religion, as somebody trying to shove it down their throats. And to me, that's just ridiculous. Basically what I interpret is that you're saying I should hide my religion because YOU are CHOOSING not to have/embrace one. That just seems so hypocritical to me.

 

[JoshuaJohn]

I think it's find to get in a circle and say a prayer like blessing... except more like a motivational talk and not a prayer. I don't think it's fair to mention any God that has an affiliation with any specific religion... Like "Please let us do well..." Instead of "Please Jesus, Let us Do well"...

 

[F!ERCE]

@Fierce

Yipes, I left my above response unfinished and came back to it and so didn't see this. I know you said "this is not as serious" but good grief. You cannot compare in any way asking someone to sit through a prayer with sexual harassment or not challenging racist comments. A little proportion please.

Just an example...and all moral issues, when it comes down to it anyway. I am in no way suggesting a prayer is going to harm someone in the way sexual harassment would.

 

[F!ERCE]

Sort of unrelated to the topic, but why do so many parents have a problem with their children learning about a religion when they don't even have one to call their own? To me, I support any religion that makes somebody a better person. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the one common thing in every religion lies in that they aim to better themselves to please their Higher Power(s). The only thing I've gathered from the people who claim to be "non-practicers" of any religion is that they view any form of public prayer, regardless of the religion, as somebody trying to shove it down their throats. And to me, that's just ridiculous. Basically what I interpret is that you're saying I should hide my religion because YOU are CHOOSING not to have/embrace one. That just seems so hypocritical to me.

Just like your parents thought it would be best for you to live life (roughly) according to the morals and ethics set by the Bible, some parents believe in a different set of morals and ethics (whether they fall under some sort of religious umbrella or not) that they would like their child to abide by. The way I see it, a religion is pretty much a set of beliefs by which one lives their life; I have no lesser ethical or moral compass because I don't identify with a set, established religion (in other words, I still have a moral code by which I live, I just don't call it "Judaism" or "Christianity"). Would your parents, after teaching you the values and guidelines which they think are right (in short, a little thing called "Christianity"), send you to a Jewish synagogue to learn and try out that set of values and guidelines? Probably not...from a non-religious perspective, I don't see much variance in the two, except that you may aim to please a deity, while I aim to please...well, whomever I aim to please (maybe that Higher Burger King I talked about earlier. Do you think I'd get free fries as a reward for good deeds?)

On another note, I would hope that most parents would eventually - once they are mature enough - be open to allowing their child exposure to other sets of morals and ethics (i.e. religions) and ultimately allowing the individual to choose which is best for them, but I could be wrong.

I'm a "non-practicer" of religion and have absolutely no problem with public prayer, worship, etc of any kind unless it is causing an immediate disruptance in what is not intended to be a primarily religious atmosphere. That was a pretty broad stereotype to lay out...

(Hate to keep arguing with you, I guess we're both just active within this thread lol. I'd also like to add that I am a child of a father who comes from a practicing Catholic family and a mother from a practicing Jewish family. I was "raised" Jewish (Bat Mitzvah'd and all!), and I have been exposed to a lot of religion in my life...but ultimately decided that I didn't all-out agree with either religion that I was exposed to. I understand the value and influence that religion has on people's lives and would never try and negate that...I just have different ideas than you might on the issue at hand)

 

[F!ERCE]

This is becoming a very ethical debate as opposed to a cheer-related one...not sure we're in the right place for it anymore lol.

 

[ztaprincess]

This is becoming a very ethical debate as opposed to a cheer-related one...not sure we're in the right place for it anymore lol.

I agree. I feel like it could turn ugly at any minute. I have to say I agree 100% with your above post though. I feel the same way with religion.
I can say that I am a non-practicioner of religion and I do not think that public prayer is shoving their religion down my throat until it begins to be aimed towards me and my actions, thoughts, and beliefs are questioned. I know how snarky kids and teenager can be (adults as well) so what I feel could happen from an athlete deciding to not participate in prayer is that they are going to have their actions, thoughts, and beliefs questioned by others. Religion I feel is private and not questioned.
What I don't understand by those who have said that those who are against group prayer from a team think that it means they have to hide their religion. What is wrong with simply praying alone so that it does not make anyone else feel uncomfortable? Can the same prayer said in a group not be said to yourself while alone?

 

[mccracal]

@F!ERCE
You took the words right out of my mouth! Also, I don't think that nonreligious parents inherently have issues about their children learning about other religions- I think that'd be a wonderful thing for any child (or grown adult, for that matter!) to experience. I think the main problem in the whole cheerleading practice issue is that the parents don't have any sort of control over how the children are being exposed to religion. It's not like the coaches are dedicating each week to explaining the differences and intricacies of the doctrines of today's religions. In the situation that the thread is actually about, kids are in an environment where authority figures and the vast majority of their peers are taking part in an activity dedicated to a single religion. No one could seriously classify that as an educational activity being carried out in an unbiased way, which if I were a parent, is the manner in which I would want my kid exposed to such a delicate topic.

 

[Katybugmom]

But why would you want to divide your team like this? Why do certain athletes get to be more of a part of the team because of something that has absolutely nothing to do with the team? If it were something that the "outsider" athlete could adapt to - like 19 athletes want a black t-shirt and 1 wants a white - that would be different, but there is no way you can ask an athlete to "suck it up" (per se, not saying you implied this) in a situation dealing with their moral/ethical ideas because most of the team disagrees.

The argument that it's "late in the season" is silly, to me...situations change over time, the athlete may have been uncomfortable saying something before, it may become more bothersome to someone over time, etc etc etc.

You can't demand that those 15 athletes don't pray to accomodate the other 5, but it sure would be beneficial to your team dynamic to suggest an alternative that everyone can participate in.

I know I'm going to be in the minority here - which I am totally comfortable with - but I have been the "little guy" in this sort of situation before and wish it had gone a different way.

I was the minority because my once prayerful, conservative group decided to start pushing the limits that I was comfortable with. I didn't want my child to get teased for being a "prude" so I had to pull her from something that she loved. So it goes both ways with feeling left out and uncomfortable.

 

[F!ERCE]

I was the minority because my once prayerful, conservative group decided to start pushing the limits that I was comfortable with. I didn't want my child to get teased for being a "prude" so I had to pull her from something that she loved. So it goes both ways with feeling left out and uncomfortable.

Good to hear it from an opposite balance, too. I would hope that whichever way the balance exists, there was a way to "meet-in-the-middle". I'm sorry that you had to be in a similar situation...it's never easy.

 

[cheermommaRN]

All I can think of during this discussion is Sheldon and his mother from "Big Bang Theory" (favorite show ever!)
Sheldon Cooper: Mom, I want to apologize for my behavior last night.
Mary Cooper: Apology accepted.
Sheldon Cooper: Great! Now, you're gonna love the Pearlmother lecture. Look, he will be stating that the universe is older than six thousand years, but I thought you could stick your fingers in your ears and hum "Amazing Grace" during those parts.
Mary Cooper: I am still going out with your friends.
Sheldon Cooper: But... I apologized! And that was hard for me, because I didn't do anything wrong!

 

[Seeker30]

 

[xtremeteal4life]

Sort of unrelated to the topic, but why do so many parents have a problem with their children learning about a religion when they don't even have one to call their own? To me, I support any religion that makes somebody a better person. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the one common thing in every religion lies in that they aim to better themselves to please their Higher Power(s). The only thing I've gathered from the people who claim to be "non-practicers" of any religion is that they view any form of public prayer, regardless of the religion, as somebody trying to shove it down their throats. And to me, that's just ridiculous. Basically what I interpret is that you're saying I should hide my religion because YOU are CHOOSING not to have/embrace one. That just seems so hypocritical to me.

Well that's kind of like you discrediting another person's set of core beliefs. Would you want your child to learn the Wiccan religion and feel obligated (or required) publicly say their prayers, chants, and/or blessings? I really want you to think about that for a moment...what if Christianity was the minority and the majority was Wiccan? Would you feel at all uncomfortable if you felt required, or at the very least obligated, to participate in their prayers bc just bc there happened to be more of them than Christians? Would you be willingly open to them not hiding (or at the very least not keeping it personal) their religion during school and/or practice...especially since we're talking about practices? Would that not be hypocritical as well if your answer is no the last question?

And to answer your question about the one common thing in every religion lies in their desire to better themselves to please a higher power, no it not. There are numerous religions that exist in which that is not the case at all. Religion doesn't necessary mean a belief in a higher power/supreme being.

Also, as far as being a parent and it concerning my child, it is so much more complicated than that. Some people don't feel it's anyone's place to introduce their child to any particular religion for a numerous variety of reasons. For example, using the same analogy as earlier, let's suppose you want your child to figure out what's best for him and/or her without as much bias as possible, but your child is exposed to a religion in which you deem to be a cult? What would you do then? Would you be ok w/them learning about something you thought was potentially harmful and having a negative influence on your child? In addition, many people who are either atheist and/or agnostic have their important reasons for believing that way and just as I'm sure you do for being a Christian....but if you lack acknowledgement to their reasons and feelings, isn't that hypocritical too? I'm just trying to give some different perspectives since you asked. :)