All-Star Too Many Boys On The Floor

[Deleted member 15]

There is a difference between not understanding and not reading. A HUGE difference. If you read, but don't understand, that's what questions are for. If you refuse to read, it is no one's issue but yours. When I show horses, if I have even the slightest question on a legality, I'm checking with everyone I know to get a definitive answer. And this is only with me on the line.

If I have 24 athletes riding on me making the right call, I'm going to get an answer no matter what it takes. Especially if I'm competing in another country, and they've put a ton of time, effort, and money into going to that competition. I'd be the first to admit that if I got DQ'd over a rule I didn't read, it was my fault. It was my responsibility to read and ensure I understood those rules.

There is no way at all that this team shouldn't have been deducted the safety/legality issues. Especially when other teams got deductions for legalities. So either the judges didn't know the level 6 rules, or they didn't care. Either one is outrageous for a competition at this level.

If it goes to litigation it usually comes down to understanding. If someone doesn't understand the signature doesn't matter.

I won't address specifics with Bangkok due to the confidentiality agreement signed before working the event.

 

[newcheerdad]

So, you really should be mad at all the people that didn't say anything instead of the ones that did.

I can see both sides of this equation.

On one hand, I've sometimes been the referee to catch kids wearing illegal cleats or jewelry when other referees let them slide for an entire year.

On the other hand, I can understand why a team would be frustrated that an element deemed legal for an entire season is considered illegal in the finals of Worlds.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think one thing that would help tremendously in this regard is for the USASF to manage judging for events they sanction. (of course, you'd need a standardized scoresheet to make that work) Basically, an arm of the USASF would train the judges, credential them, and select the ones that work the biggest competitions based on their performance. It may even make financial sense to do this rather than having each EP maintain their own judging department.

 

[Deleted member 15]

On day 2 of finals our kids were in 7th place going in (small ltd coed)...this was our first year we had a really good team and were so excited we made it so far...other years we never made it past the first day and our goal was to make top 10. We had sent our routine out to at least 10 people who included comp promoters, judges, safey people...we also competed THE SAME routine at 5 bids comps and never had and issue....there were also 3 safety judges on the warmup mats beforehand...NOW, in finals we were called out on an illegal inversion in the pyramid...our coach said it was a dismount and realod and the judges thought otherwise...we got a 5 pt deduction whice dropped us to 13th place and off the podium....why why why, after taking all the precautions our kids took the hit...we were never ever called on this, our routine was competed at least 15 time throught the year and getting the go ahead from so many people the kids got crushed...the rules are so ambiguous. The same thing happened to Brandon but it was caught day one...we did not get the chance to correct....any comments would be appreciated~ Thanks for listening

I've been looking at this on and off for a while because I don't have a good answer for you, but have some questions and comments that may get to a better bad answer.

Do you know if your routine was sent to Les Stella? He's the final authority in whether or not something is legal and the event director at Worlds. I believe he would have to approve any rules call made at Jostens. (I think having 1 person solely in charge of this is a structural problem within the USASF, but does provide consistency that would be lost if several people were in charge of it).

The other main thing is there aren't enough really good rules people so too many things go uncalled throughout the season. I've suggested to Les and the 2 judges on the rules committee that they assign the rules people at all Worlds qualifying events. If event producers won't go for that at least give the EPs a suggested pool of people they should choose from.

 

[TinyBlondie15]

After two days of reading all 24 pages of this all I can say is.. Holy Cow..

Before I read this I had no idea that you were only allowed 12 males.. I then read the USASF guidelines/rule book and saw that. When i watched the video of the routine i saw mainly tumbling that wasn't up to level 6 standards and the routine just seemed odd to me like something was different. I figured that was just because they're an international team and they dont follow exactly what we do. Once I got through these pages I watched the video again and noticed that they had some stuff that was pointed out as illegal. Now, from all my cheer experience, when something was illegal we usually had it pointed out to us so we could fix it or we would get deductions. I've also heard of teams being DQ'd because of it. I personally loved Bagkok's routine even if there was some things that just weren't legal. They defenitly have improved greatly as far as international teams go. I'd hate to strip them of their title and everything but what they did was illegal and they need to be penalized for it.

Also, I'd like to thank @RulesGuy and @Andre for helping us all to try and understand while staying within the confidentiality agreement they signed. It's very much appreciated :)

 

[ztaprincess]

I've been looking at this on and off for a while because I don't have a good answer for you, but have some questions and comments that may get to a better bad answer.

Do you know if your routine was sent to Les Stella? He's the final authority in whether or not something is legal and the event director at Worlds. I believe he would have to approve any rules call made at Jostens. (I think having 1 person solely in charge of this is a structural problem within the USASF, but does provide consistency that would be lost if several people were in charge of it).

The other main thing is there aren't enough really good rules people so too many things go uncalled throughout the season. I've suggested to Les and the 2 judges on the rules committee that they assign the rules people at all Worlds qualifying events. If event producers won't go for that at least give the EPs a suggested pool of people they should choose from.

Probably one of the best ideas I have ever read on this board. I think it would help a lot since things seemed to sometimes be called legal at 1 event but illegal at another because like you said when there are multiple people there can be a lack of consistency. I would love for there to be a group of people that EPs pull from and use as rule people at their competitions.

 

[Deleted member 15]

it wasn't her fault...someone should of caught this earlier before we took at big hit at the most important comp of the season.

The bolded part is what we are likely to disagree on. It starts with the people in charge of the routine. Other parts broke down too, but first responsibility lies with the person or people in charge of the team.

 

[Deleted member 15]

so basically 7 out of 13...more than half are Varsity representation?

Some would say yes, others would disagree. Either way I think one company permanently having 5 of 13 voting seats on the board is something that needs to be addressed.

 

[newcheerdad]

The other main thing is there aren't enough really good rules people so too many things go uncalled throughout the season. I've suggested to Les and the 2 judges on the rules committee that they assign the rules people at all Worlds qualifying events. If event producers won't go for that at least give the EPs a suggested pool of people they should choose from.

Why wouldn't EP's want that? Seems to me that it would be one less thing for them to worry about.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Why wouldn't EP's want that? Seems to me that it would be one less thing for them to worry about.

Taking points from teams leads to pissed off customers that will threaten to not return.

 

[socratesofcheer]

If it goes to litigation it usually comes down to understanding. If someone doesn't understand the signature doesn't matter.

I won't address specifics with Bangkok due to the confidentiality agreement signed before working the event.

Couldn't you just say there was a communication breakdown about the confidentiality agreement. That seems to be the excuse of the week for this discussion.

 

[newcheerdad]

Taking points from teams leads to pissed off customers that will threaten to not return.

That is precisely why the USASF needs to assign rules officials to major competitions. In my perfect world they'd be training and assigning judges as well, but that's probably a bridge too far. This sport is always going to have an enormous credibility gap as long as scoring and safety violations are things that can be manipulated for the sake of keeping a "customer".

 

[tumbleyoda]

That is precisely why the USASF needs to assign rules officials to major competitions. In my perfect world they'd be training and assigning judges as well, but that's probably a bridge too far. This sport is always going to have an enormous credibility gap as long as scoring and safety violations are things that can be manipulated for the sake of keeping a "customer".

Assign them to all World's bid competitions and use a Universal scoresheet for worlds bid divisions only. After all World's is their crown jewel so it makes sense they should want to make sure it is as controversy free as possible. Unless they are operating by the mantra that all publicity is good publicity. It also gives them the chance to work the bugs out of it before imposing it on every division. If they could fix the issues in those Worlds divisions it would go a long way in getting those oppossed to the universal scoresheet to accept it in every level. JMO.

 

[Jennaw]

The Facts:
Sorry to all for not being on here earlier. After Worlds, I spent Monday and Tuesday in Orlando in meetings. I traveled home today in time to pick my sons up from school and my wife up from work only to get home and pass out for three hours on the couch. (And that's why I am up at 2:15am writing on these boards)

As most of you know, I am the Executive Director for rules for the USASF as well as the competition official for Worlds.

I will try to explain as much as possible about this situation without going as far as breaking confidentiality agreements for my job. Like most professional competitions (especially for Worlds) no judge or official is allowed to discuss specific details about ANY team.

I will also try to address some of the inaccuracies from earlier posts. However, I WILL NOT be dragged into conversations and conspiracy theories on message boards.

Yes, Thailand and a couple of other teams competed with more than 12 males. However, before I get into the story, you need some previous details.
-For the past few years, this division has been allowed to qualify for a bid with more than 12 males but were expected to cut to 12 for Worlds.
-The USASF Age Grid says 1 or more males but the Worlds packet says 1-12 males.
-Also, the ICU which is on the Thursday and Friday before Worlds (in the same location) allows more than 12 males on a team
-the final detail, this division did not compete on Saturday but competed twice on Sunday

SUNDAY
Thailand shows up for their warm-ups for prelims and is ready to cut their number of males down to 12 (from 15). As we always do, we had USASF safety judges in the warm up area to help catch legality violations. When my safety judges saw Thailand removing the three males from the routine (or maybe Thailand asked if they needed to-I am not positive on this), the safety judges looked in the rule book (which includes the USASF Age Grid and not the Worlds packet) and told them not to remove the males because the rules say "1 or more males". Is this a mess up on the Safety Judge's part? no - they were reading the materials given to them. Is this a mess up on Thailand's part? no - they were prepared to remove the males but were instructed not to by official USASF Safety Judges. I would have to take the blame on myself for not providing my safety judges with the correct information. That one line is the ONLY line that is different in ALL of the rules, glossary and age grid and I missed it. My apologies to you all.

SUNDAY AFTERNOON
Up to this point I was busy handling a million other situations at Worlds. It was then brought to my attention (over the walkie talkie headsets) that another team filed a complaint about a team competing with too many males. At this point I still had no idea which teams were involved. I went immediately to our paperwork only to find out this has never happened before so there was neither a rule written nor a precedent set.
I then received the details of the teams involved and started researching the situation. My first reaction was to penalize their prelim scores but this was a non issue because no matter what their score was, the top 3 teams from each country advance to Finals. Next, I met with the coaches of Thailand (the ones who understood and spoke broken English). I informed them they had two choices: 1. remove the males from Finals (which they would be warming up for within the next hour or two) or 2. receive a deep penalty for each male over the limit.

AND THAT"S WHEN THINGS GOT INTERESTING
Being the respectful and gracious people they are (if you saw them enter the main stage, you know what I am talking about), they were very apologetic but then informed me they planned on removing the 3 males earlier that morning only to be told to keep them in by my staff. This is when I found out the situation had absolutely nothing to do with Thailand not following the rules.
NOW - imagine my predicament. In the middle of the most elite and intense competition in cheerleading, a team tries to follow the rules only to be inadvertently instructed not to follow the rules by an official of the event with Finals less than two hours away and warm ups about an hour away.

MY DECISION
Keep the option for them to remove the extra males from the team and receive no deduction or leave the males on and receive a lesser deduction than earlier stated since it is our (the USASF's) fault that they were allowed to compete earlier that day and minimal time to adjust the routine. I also informed them that if they kept the males on for Finals, then I would HAVE to give them some sort of penalty to keep it fair to the other teams. From what I understand, for safety reasons, they decided to keep the males on and let the chips fall as they do.

I FINALLY GOT TO WATCH
Out of the 385 teams, most of which performed more than once, I was able to watch only about 7 of the performances this year. Gymtime and Thailand in Finals were two of the seven. I also, for the first time in a LONG time, decided to not watch from a safety judge stand point but from a fan of cheer stand point. All I can say is Gymtime stunts - WOW and Thailand pyramids - WOW - the rest I will leave up to the panel judges.
The most impressive thing I saw all weekend was the class of GT. When Thailand finished the routine and GT walked back on the mat to support Thailand, the standing ovation in the crowd grew even louder. It was a moment I will never forget and I so much appreciate GT for being such a Class Act.

WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE - WHAT'S BEING DONE
1. The new Age Grid is consistent with the Worlds Packet. (I am NOT going through this again.) It reads 1-12 males.
2. Performing with too many males will have a set penalty, be it DQ or something else.
3. I am trying to work with the ICU to further streamline rules, restrictions and requirements between them and Worlds.

So there you have it. I truly hope this helps everyone and gives you some perspective of the situation. No favors were done, no secrets were kept, it was just me making a mistake and trying to be as fair to every team as possible. Was it the best solution? Who knows. It was the best I could do and would do it again if given the same set of circumstances.

Les

P.S. I apologize if the above post has spelling or grammatical errors. It is now 3:30am and I am too tired to go back and proof read.

Thank you Les for your Honesty and Class in this post. We all understand mistakes happen and I am glad to know that you are actively tying to make sure things like this cannot happen again.
Thanks again for the clarification .

 

[SharkDad]

According to the rules this would apply:
Eligible Athletes, Substitutions and Alternates:
If a team is found to have made an improper substitution or alter- nate, this team will:
•Be disqualified.
•Be responsible for repaying the total cost of any
funds received through a “Paid” or “Partial Paid”
bid.
•Not be eligible for any type of bid to The
Cheerleading or Dance Worlds for the
following year.

This quote refers to eligible athletes as substitutions and alternates not incorrect numbers of boys on the roster.

As many have pointed out there are a number of things that we wish the USASF would have done and even a few questions left unanswered. Everyone needs to understand that the USASF doesn't have an army of rules enforcers. It provides the guidelines for teams and EPs to follow and the staff provides resolution when problems are presented. Les @RulesGuy provided a pretty detailed (more then we should expect) explanation of what happend in this situation.

@WyldWon I'm sorry this situation happened to your team but again, it sounds like it's more a function of the current system than the Worlds Rules Committee or safety judges trying to screw over your team. Had the coach gotten the routine to the Worlds Rules Committe instead of other coaches and event producers, maybe this would have been caught or at least addressed differently.

I am not a coach or rules guy, I just try to keep communication straight. We should keep asking these important questions and be patient waiting for the correct answer from the correct person, not speculate on what might have, would have, or should have happened. A great majority of this discussion can better be used to help suggest improvements to the current system so these issues don't happen again.

 

[Jennaw]

This quote refers to eligible athletes as substitutions and alternates not incorrect numbers of boys on the roster.

As many have pointed out there are a number of things that we wish the USASF would have done and even a few questions left unanswered. Everyone needs to understand that the USASF doesn't have an army of rules enforcers. It provides the guidelines for teams and EPs to follow and the staff provides resolution when problems are presented. Les @RulesGuy provided a pretty detailed (more then we should expect) explanation of what happend in this situation.

@WyldWon I'm sorry this situation happened to your team but again, it sounds like it's more a function of the current system than the Worlds Rules Committee or safety judges trying to screw over your team. Had the coach gotten the routine to the Worlds Rules Committe instead of other coaches and event producers, maybe this would have been caught or at least addressed differently.

I am not a coach or rules guy, I just try to keep communication straight. We should keep asking these important questions and be patient waiting for the correct answer from the correct person, not speculate on what might have, would have, or should have happened. A great majority of this discussion can better be used to help suggest improvements to the current system so these issues don't happen again.

Took a lot of guts for Les to say what he did. I am happy that the situation has been clarified, apologized for, and steps are being taken so it wont happen again. What more can we ask for?