All-Star Usasf Rules Gurus - Please Read

[King]

True, but when you add that to coaches not getting paid...

You cannot not add that as it is not additive reasoning. The coaches were not paid (which isn't a smart business thing to do) so did no coaches show up for practice? Did that team still having coaches in front of them coaching? Unless you signed a contract that specifically says we are joining this team only for these coaches I also don't see much of an argument.

What I do see happening is these sound like poor business decisions. People will leave the gym most likely and it will be less strong next year, but outside of that its a little bit of the buyer beware. It doesn't sound like anyone was denied service, just received service they are not happy with. Legal battles are not the same as moral battles. You have to detach the two.

 

[King]

If a parent was trying to find this information out before they signed up it would have been extremely difficult. I live in Illinois and I did not know there even was a Grundy county

Because the Girl Scout thing, while shady, doesn't have to do with cheerleading.

I am NOT defending anyones actions. I am providing reasons why an appeals process would never change the current outcome. We as parents make decisions based on the information we have. If halfway through a season we find new information and decide our kids are no longer in an environment they should be in then we take them out. It is unfortunate there are victims in this situation and they are kids, but thats a bit of reality.

Life's tough. Wear a helmet. Sometimes you are going to be disappointed with the outcome. Sometimes you get the short end of the stick. Sometimes you feel you get cheated. Just gotta make better and more informed decisions next time and try and help people not make the same mistake.

 

[King]

This whole discussion has me thinking on the difference between politics and policy. I think of politics as the discussion and campaigning of rules and their ideological reasoning. 'We need an appeals process to protect kids who would be hurt by this rule!!' And there is policy. Policy to me is what will really happen when people make political promises and actually follow through with them and people talk about those. 'An appeals process would likely not change many outcomes, would incite more people to switch, and be very unpragmatic and in general a waste of resources.' So it is my mistake trying to argue policy with a bunch of people trying to discuss politics.

 

[shadow]

Everyone keeps saying do your homework investigate before you sign up. It would have been really difficult to find information out before hand if you did not know where to look. Not very productive for the USASF dealing with the fall out of gym owners who might not even be a USASF member had a background check been done.
I think we need to begin with the adults and trickle down to the kids. Start by adding background checks when Adults want to be members.
It won't catch everything but just like the waiver, if you don't think you will pass you might not waste anyone's time.

 

[King]

Everyone keeps saying do your homework investigate before you sign up. It would have been really difficult to find information out before hand if you did not know where to look. Not very productive for the USASF dealing with the fall out of gym owners who might not even be a USASF member had a background check been done.
I think we need to begin with the adults and trickle down to the kids. Start by adding background checks when Adults want to be members.
It won't catch everything but just like the waiver, if you don't think you will pass you might not waste anyone's time.

I am afraid its a bit of the caveat emptor in this situation. But it is like that for just about anything you do. Do you background check your mechanic to make sure they know what they are doing?

 

[BlueCat]

This whole discussion has me thinking on the difference between politics and policy. I think of politics as the discussion and campaigning of rules and their ideological reasoning. 'We need an appeals process to protect kids who would be hurt by this rule!!' And there is policy. Policy to me is what will really happen when people make political promises and actually follow through with them and people talk about those. 'An appeals process would likely not change many outcomes, would incite more people to switch, and be very unpragmatic and in general a waste of resources.' So it is my mistake trying to argue policy with a bunch of people trying to discuss politics.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are basically saying that an appeals process/committee sounds better in theory than it would be in practice. I would agree with that.

I feel like one side is arguing "fairness" and the other is "cost-benefit".

 

[SkyBlue]

This is such a small, small percentage of people in the big picture. This rule only impacts level 5 athletes, which is a large number but not as large as the lower levels. From there, it impacts worlds teams, which again makes the pool smaller. From worlds teams, it only impacts those that are unhappy and want to leave for another gym. Another VERY small number. This rule is not impacting those that are leaving in the proper manner and getting releases from owners, simply the ones that is causing problems for. Although it is very emotional for many, you have to look at the big picture. For there to be a whole committee and process for appeals, you are asking many people to get involved to help a very small number of people. I would much rather those people use their time and energy to help other areas of cheer (universal scoresheet, athlete registration, etc) that impact thousands of kids and parents, instead of only a handful.
Also, I know this is hard to comprehend, but worlds is not the end all be all. Children have many years of eligibility to go to worlds. This rule does not say they can never go, it is simply one year. One competition, one year. To a kid, that's a lot, but when they are an adult, they are not going to be impacted by this one competition. I would say the role of cheer in their lives and teaching them lessons will stick with them long before one competition (that they will probably attend the next year anyway). For many of us, worlds was not even around when
we cheered. I still loved cheering, and had a great experience that was not defined by trying to be a world champion.

I think the big overall picture that I am trying to get across is what is not being seen here. Currently the USASF is the governing body for competitive cheer. There are many, many rules that have been put in place without the resources necessary to properly enforce those rules. Some examples: a) Disiplinary committee: While there are rules to file complaints, you must be a member of the USASF, which parents are not members, so I am assuming that we could not file a complaint on behalf of our minor children (if we can, this would need to be spelled out). If it is ruled that the complaints are valid and action is handed down, the worst punishments are monetary fine and suspension of the offending parties membership from the USASF. What exactly, say for a guilty gym owner, does that mean? Is the offending party published somewhere, is that gym owner banned from taking their gym to USASF sanctioned functions? Are the competition companies notified? Who polices this? How is it enforced? b) Athlete membership is "mandatory" this year. What happens if athletes from gyms are not registered and start competing? There is nowhere on the rosters that asks for the athlete membership number. Are those athletes not allowed to compete? Is the gym being notified that they have athletes rostered who are not members? c) As socratesofcheer stated, the rule for the release was implemented because a few gym owners complained that gym B was recruiting their kids, and something needs to be done. I totally agree that is wrong, however, you can't hastily put a rule into place to satisfy a few gym owners without first thinking through the ramifications for ALL involved. And you certainly can't pick and choose which rules to enforce and which to say, well....sorry, we just don't have the resources! A rule was put in place to appease a few gym owners crying foul and in the process you forgot the most important aspect of why competitive cheer even exists.....the ATHLETE!

I will say this yet again, if the rule is broken, fix it, if you can't fix it, get rid of it until you can. If you are going to side with the gym owner, then you better damn well be sure of who the gym owner is that you are siding with.

Joy this isn't about a few people being unhappy and wanting to change kids. This is about teaching our kids that morals and ethics mean something and that we as the parent and adult will not be financially supporting an organization that is ethically challenged and morally bankrupt. If your biggest worry is a universal score sheet, we are nowhere near being on the same level of what is important in this sport. There are bigger issues than just one competition, but yet, what it boils down to is a hastily created rule put in place to quiet a minority of owners who felt threatened, without any regard to the parents/athletes who keep these gym owners and event producers in business.

 

[shadow]

I am afraid its a bit of the caveat emptor in this situation. But it is like that for just about anything you do. Do you background check your mechanic to make sure they know what they are doing?

My mechanic doesn't work with my kid.

 

[BlueCat]

This is about teaching our kids that morals and ethics mean something and that we as the parent and adult will not be financially supporting an organization that is ethically challenged and morally bankrupt. If your biggest worry is a universal score sheet, we are nowhere near being on the same level of what is important in this sport. There are bigger issues than just one competition, but yet, what it boils down to is a hastily created rule put in place to quiet a minority of owners who felt threatened, without any regard to the parents/athletes who keep these gym owners and event producers in business.

While I understand that you disagree with the rule (and, I believe, why you disagree), that does not automatically make everyone who does not share your view "ethically challenged and morally bankrupt."

 

[King]

It is a bit simplistic to say competitive cheer exists because of the athlete. Competitive cheer is a rather complex ecosystem. You are very right that you could not compete without athletes... but you could also not compete without a coach. Or a gym in which to practice. Or, with how evolved we are nowadays, music peeps to create your mixes. Choreographers to create your routines. EPs to put on the competitions that people are willing to travel to from all across the united states. Shoe makers to create specific cheer shoes. Spring floor makers to make what we tumble on. The uniform people (and the bow people!) to make what everyone wears.

Competitive cheer exists because there are enough athletes willing to participate AND enough adults who have made it their career to raise and train the athletes. You cannot have one without the other, and all the other pieces DO have their importance as well.

The POWER is always in the hands of the parent and the athlete. You always have the ability to walk away. The worst thing that can happen to you from walking away from a gym is IF your kid is Worlds eligible they won't be allowed to compete for one competition for just one season.

I have said the rule is the lesser of two evils and there were casualties. I don't think people like solutions that aren't perfect and hurt a separate new group of people WHILE saving and fixing a much larger group of others (as the two groups are distinct from each other). It is taking the burden from a larger group and putting it on a smaller group. So the overall net effect is positive, but obviously if you are in the smaller group you would be quite peeved. But if the overall net gain is positive than I am for it.

 

[King]

While I understand that you disagree with the rule (and, I believe, why you disagree), that does not automatically make everyone who does not share your view "ethically challenged and morally bankrupt."

Try being a Democrat in the south. I've been called much worse, haha.

 

[SkyBlue]

While I understand that you disagree with the rule (and, I believe, why you disagree), that does not automatically make everyone who does not share your view "ethically challenged and morally bankrupt."

This has nothing to do with people not sharing my view, I am confused on where you read that. I specifically said what I teach my kids is that we will not support an ORGANIZATION in which the owner is ethically challenged and morally bankrupt.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I can't speak to the nature of this particular situation (although if people would like to PM me the details or even things to google, I can rectify this response with a more personal one). HOWEVER- unless it is illegal, I don't see the grounds for an appeal on anything. If I go to an Acting Class which promises a meeting with Big Wig Casting Director, I can't be mad if I find out Big Wig Casting Director is a jerk, and will only hire me on Tuesdays (the day I can't work). I can't sue the Acting Class because I didn't read reviews telling me Big Wig was a jerk. If there were no reviews, I certainly should have been cautious and tried to audit the class. Or gone for the cheapest class offered (to diminish the impact if my return is poor). I can apply this to acting because it's the thing I know best lol. Granted, all these things sound hollow when you're stuck in a situation and not getting the answers you want. Even if you answer you want is still the best answer.

I can say that the power is STILL in my hands. I may have preferred the power of invisibility and am stuck with the power of walking through walls, but I still have power. I may not be able to walk through every wall, but I can get through the ones I need.

 

[SkyBlue]

It is a bit simplistic to say competitive cheer exists because of the athlete. Competitive cheer is a rather complex ecosystem. You are very right that you could not compete without athletes... but you could also not compete without a coach. Or a gym in which to practice. Or, with how evolved we are nowadays, music peeps to create your mixes. Choreographers to create your routines. EPs to put on the competitions that people are willing to travel to from all across the united states. Shoe makers to create specific cheer shoes. Spring floor makers to make what we tumble on. The uniform people (and the bow people!) to make what everyone wears.

Competitive cheer exists because there are enough athletes willing to participate AND enough adults who have made it their career to raise and train the athletes. You cannot have one without the other, and all the other pieces DO have their importance as well.

The POWER is always in the hands of the parent and the athlete. You always have the ability to walk away. The worst thing that can happen to you from walking away from a gym is IF your kid is Worlds eligible they won't be allowed to compete for one competition for just one season.

I have said the rule is the lesser of two evils and there were casualties. I don't think people like solutions that aren't perfect and hurt a separate new group of people WHILE saving and fixing a much larger group of others (as the two groups are distinct from each other). It is taking the burden from a larger group and putting it on a smaller group. So the overall net effect is positive, but obviously if you are in the smaller group you would be quite peeved. But if the overall net gain is positive than I am for it.

So which came first the athlete or the coach? Competitive cheer evolved from school and rec leagues for those that wanted more than just being the spirit committee on the sidelines. From there the snowball effect took over and creative entrepreneur's figured out how to turn something they are good at doing into a money making venture....but again without the athletes and parents willing to shell out, none of it would exist.

I strongly disagree with this rule being the lesser of two evils and I do not sit idly by and accept that there are casualties which happen to be innocent kids.

 

[shadow]

I work at a school system. My contact with students is very minimal. In order to work with children I had to pass a background check, a physical and have a clean driving record. Days my pass and I won't speak to a single student. I will never drive a single student anywhere. People working even near kids need to be held to a higher standard. My kid came from gymnastics. I made the mistake of assuming(i know) that USASF and USAG were on par with each other. It wasn't until this thread yesterday and found out no one is required to do a background check. Where is the smiley with the cart in front of the horse.
http://usagym.org/PDFs/Member Services/backgroundcheck_qa.pdf