All-Star Who would be in favor of an Open 4 division?

[garretttt]

How about we add an open 2? They're athletes who graduate as a senior not knowing how to do extended stunts.

 

[CGAcheer]

I think i agree with ariel on this one, that we cant keep catering to everyone thats out there. I thought about it in a way comparing it to other sports. If you are a football player or baseball or basketball, when you graduate high school if your not at the elite level what do you do? You play for a DII or DIII school, and if you cant do that, you can either play intramural or just not play at all. And once you graduate college, thats it, you're done unless you're going to the NFL or MLB or NBA.
As a cheerleader after high school you can go cheer in college. If you're not a level 5 or 6 tumbler you have the option to cheer for a smaller college that doesnt require those higher level skills. Not everyone has to cheer for the UofL's and UK's and SFA's and HPU's of the world. I know were talking about continuing with all star and not college, but i think if an open four division is added even less people will continue to cheer for the smaller schools because they will have the opportunity to cheer for an all star team that doesnt require the higher level skills.
Also if people cant afford an open 6 division and thats why there are so few teams, why would an open four be any different?

you can go ahead and bite my head off now (: haha
and sorry if that was all jumbled, it was hard to get it on paper the way i was thinking it in my head.

There are minor leagues for MLB, UFL and Europe for the NFL and the NBDL for NBA and there are tons of adult Rec leagues.
Plus there aren't any professional competitive cheer teams out there, that I know of anyway.
There are very few if any sports that I know of that don't offer a variety of competitive levels for adult athletes other than Cheer.

 

[CGAcheer]

How about we add an open 2? They're athletes who graduate as a senior not knowing how to do extended stunts.

or we could just throw them right into Level 6 stunts, pyramids and baskets and just not worry about that whole tumbling thing.

or someone who graduates as a level 2 could spend a few years at open 4, continuing to do what they love and develop into a great open 6 cheerleader.

 

[dohnutt]

There are minor leagues for MLB, UFL and Europe for the NFL and the NBDL for NBA and there are tons of adult Rec leagues.
Plus there aren't any professional competitive cheer teams out there, that I know of anyway.
There are very few if any sports that I know of that don't offer a variety of competitive levels for adult athletes other than Cheer.

You still have to be way beyond average to play in the minor leagues. And yes while I cant argue that there are adult rec leagues, 99% of the time they dont seem as competitve or serious (or expensive) as the open level 5 and 6 teams in all star cheerleading. Now that could just be the teams in my area, but from my experience that is what I have seen.

 

[theoneandonly]

Hmm, tigres placed 2nd in ioag6 and ece placed thirdvwhen ece had better tumbling. That's proof right there. I'm sorry you have a problem with that.

Oh boy.. you're one of these. Ok, listen... you just made your point using the most wide open division on the face of the earth. In that division this season at worlds, you're absolutely correct. Tigres needed virtually no tumbling and they probably scored extremely well on stunts because they did unassisted stunts (which, was ridiculously impressive!!). But if you tried to show up in International all girl 5, international coed 5, or international coed 6 without at least a decent amount of elite tumbling, you'd better not be counting on top 10.. much less top 3.

Now, to agree with your overall point cheerboy.....Personally, I think the option for an open 4 is a decent one, but I hate to add more divisions. I like that there is a college intermediate division... but then again, there's no intermediate football division in the NCAA... so I'm probably not in favor of it of an open 4.

 

[CGAcheer]

You still have to be way beyond average to play in the minor leagues. And yes while I cant argue that there are adult rec leagues, 99% of the time they dont seem as competitve or serious (or expensive) as the open level 5 and 6 teams in all star cheerleading. Now that could just be the teams in my area, but from my experience that is what I have seen.

But they have a place to compete with other similarly skilled people, its not NFL or nothing.

I doubt that open 4 would be as serious or expensive as 5 or 6, since they won't be competing for worlds bids, but it would definitely be competitive division.

 

[garretttt]

Oh boy.. you're one of these. Ok, listen... you just made your point using the most wide open division on the face of the earth. In that division this season at worlds, you're absolutely correct. Tigres needed virtually no tumbling and they probably scored extremely well on stunts because they did unassisted stunts (which, was ridiculously impressive!!). But if you tried to show up in International all girl 5, international coed 5, or international coed 6 without at least a decent amount of elite tumbling, you'd better not be counting on top 10.. much less top 3.

Now, to agree with your overall point cheerboy.....Personally, I think the option for an open 4 is a decent one, but I hate to add more divisions. I like that there is a college intermediate division... but then again, there's no intermediate football division in the NCAA... so I'm probably not in favor of it of an open 4.

woah now! i was making a point. now thailand placed 4th in international coed 5 because they had AMAZING stunts and they did also have some tumbling. ive seen plenty of teams with amazing stunts that just didnt hit at worlds and they didnt have the tumbling either. open 4 shouldnt be added because well we already have enough divisions why dont they just compete in college leve 4?

 

[garretttt]

open 4 would be allstar cheer just like any other level. it would be expensive.

 

[CGAcheer]

Oh boy.. you're one of these. Ok, listen... you just made your point using the most wide open division on the face of the earth. In that division this season at worlds, you're absolutely correct. Tigres needed virtually no tumbling and they probably scored extremely well on stunts because they did unassisted stunts (which, was ridiculously impressive!!). But if you tried to show up in International all girl 5, international coed 5, or international coed 6 without at least a decent amount of elite tumbling, you'd better not be counting on top 10.. much less top 3.

Now, to agree with your overall point cheerboy.....Personally, I think the option for an open 4 is a decent one, but I hate to add more divisions. I like that there is a college intermediate division... but then again, there's no intermediate football division in the NCAA... so I'm probably not in favor of it of an open 4.

its not called intermediate, but in D1 there are the BCS schools then everyone else. On top of that there is D2 and D3 and JuCo and you don't have players jumping straight to the NFL from Highschool.

and beyond college you have UFL, NFL Europe, Arena Football, smaller semi-pro leagues, and adult rec leagues

 

[dohnutt]

woah now! i was making a point. now thailand placed 4th in international coed 5 because they had AMAZING stunts and they did also have some tumbling. ive seen plenty of teams with amazing stunts that just didnt hit at worlds and they didnt have the tumbling either. open 4 shouldnt be added because well we already have enough divisions why dont they just compete in college leve 4?

exactly. i think that was the point I was trying to make before, its not like there isn't an option for someone that is 18 or 19 and level four. I know there are some extenuating circumstances where not everyone can attend college or one where they offer an intermediate cheer team, but I think those people are far less than the ones that simply would just rather be able to continue cheering all star than college.
And then once the cheerleaders that compete intermediate throughout school, are out of college, if they want to continue cheering, they will be better prepared for a level five or six open team.

 

[CGAcheer]

woah now! i was making a point. now thailand placed 4th in international coed 5 because they had AMAZING stunts and they did also have some tumbling. ive seen plenty of teams with amazing stunts that just didnt hit at worlds and they didnt have the tumbling either. open 4 shouldnt be added because well we already have enough divisions why dont they just compete in college leve 4?

They don't compete in college level 4 for any number of reasons:

Don't like school cheer, aren't in college, already graduated college, the college they go to doesn't compete

 

[dohnutt]

They don't compete in college level 4 for any number of reasons:

Don't like school cheer, aren't in college, already graduated college, the college they go to doesn't compete

If it's because someone doesnt like school cheer, well I dont want to sound rude but there can be more divisions because a few people simply dont like what is already offered. NCA is very similar to all star cheerleading, the major difference being the hard floor.
In any other sport you can play in college, whether it be intramural, rec, DI, DII, DIII, whatever, or you have the choice to not play. I think here were talking more problems with the rules and the jump from all star to college, not necessarily having too few options for level four cheerleaders.

I think on this one were going to have to agree to disagree(:

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Have the people arguing for an open 4 ever competed on an open team? If you have, I stand corrected. But it seems that some of you are viewing the open division as just an extension of senior all star cheerleading, when there are in fact a lot of differences because of the type of people it is available to.

Here are my points in an easy to read format:

1. Open teams are almost always made up of graduated students or coaches that go to school or have full time jobs. Most college kids or full time workers do not have time for 3 practices a week and a tumbling class. The amount that MOST/MANY open teams practice is once a week to once a month, because that's how much time these adults have to dedicate to cheerleading. Not a whole lot of progression to legitimate level 5 skills is going to happen with that practice schedule. So the argument that open 4 would help kids progress to international open 5 teams isn't very accurate.

2. College takes a lot of the strong level 4 athletes. A standing tuck and a layout is enough to get an athlete on many college teams. So anyone truly at an open level 4 level would have the opportunity to cheer elsewhere in college. Also, level 4 skills are enough to get you on MOST/MANY open 6 teams. A double down from one leg isn't really that much harder than a full down from one leg. And flipping baskets and 3 high stunts are something so different from anything even level 5 does that they cannot really be "progressed" to. They just needs to be taught safely.

3. There just aren't that many kids that do open teams. I know that this isn't an argument that I can back up with numbers or anything, but in a lot of areas it's hard to get even enough kids together to make up an open 6 team. Few gyms would be able to field both an open 6 and an open 4 team. So do you bump the lower level kids up to 6 or bump the higher level kids down to 4?

 

[CGAcheer]

If it's because someone doesnt like school cheer, well I dont want to sound rude but there can be more divisions because a few people simply dont like what is already offered. NCA is very similar to all star cheerleading, the major difference being the hard floor.
In any other sport you can play in college, whether it be intramural, rec, DI, DII, DIII, whatever, or you have the choice to not play. I think here were talking more problems with the rules and the jump from all star to college, not necessarily having too few options for level four cheerleaders.

I think on this one were going to have to agree to disagree(:

I didn't mean they didn't like the competition aspect of NCA college nationals

But with allstars you get more competitions and don't have to actually lead cheers which is the school cheer part that I was referring to.

but saying they should just cheer in college is no different than saying you should just cheer in High School

 

[CGAcheer]

Have the people arguing for an open 4 ever competed on an open team? If you have, I stand corrected. But it seems that some of you are viewing the open division as just an extension of senior all star cheerleading, when there are in fact a lot of differences because of the type of people it is available to.

I cheered in college before there was the intermediate division and we came in next last place and had no business being in the same division as SFA. I believe the intermediate division was started the next year after I graduated.

Sure we could do level 6 pyramids but there wasn't a smooth flow to them. There was a lot of prepping and slow transitions, probably the hardest pyramid we ever hit was a half up 221. only 2 of us had fulls which weren't good enough to compete them on the hard floor. and toss awesomes were our best partner stunts.

We could have been pretty decent at level 4 but stood no chance at 6.

During that time with only practicing once or twice a week and going to a local gymnastics gym for open tumbling on my own. I went from only being able to do a standing tuck and a round off bhs to doing punch fronts, arabians and fulls by the time I graduated while being on what was essentially a level 4 team that had to compete level 6.

I'm a small gym owner and I think I could put together a decent open 4 at my gym, but a terrible open 6