All-Star Yo, Gymtyme Is Not Playing This Year.

[BSS2000]

Just one more flaw to our system.

 

[Audrey]

You haven't met our resident troll yet, have you? It's like a cockroach..simply will not go away..

Oh I have. I don't know why I even still bother trying to reason with them.
Haha so true with the cockroach thing.

 

[ctgatormom]

I am going to have to find a video... but I am about 90% certain that a team (maryland Vipers? Or Perhaps Marlins? For some reason MARYLAND is in my head?) did what I remember to be the exact same stunt a few/several years ago and it was deemed illegal at a USASF competition. I beleive it was called a "Death Drop" or a "Death Dive". I remember reading a thread about it. If someone remember or can help me research it, that would be great as I am out of town this weekend doing choreo, but I am CERTAIN a level 5 team did this stunt (and I remember it being similar, if not exact same....and they got called on it...

Here is a question to ponder... What if roles were reversed? WHAT IF Gymtyme competed this stunt and got called for it being illegal - and then using a gray area, found out it wasnt? And GT didnt get the bid? Would the USASF then try to use one of its "gray areas" to cover its a$$ and be like "Just kidding... Since it would make us look bad... Lets just go with it being illegal because prone means face down and we wont want someone getting hurt coming down like that"

I feel like "gray areas" are used for the USASF to save themselves. Funny how at first - This stunt was deemed ILLEGAL by Les - Then a day later - after commotion on the Fierceboard and throughoutthe country (Lets face it, tons of coaches were talking about this) suddenly the discovery was made that it was LEGAL by the person who "makes" and interprets the rules....

Are the rules SO POORLY written that even the GOD OF RULES cant interpret them himself???

I am almost positive it was MD Vipers(Now Baltimore Vipers ?) That did this stunt. I am not sure about the Legality of the stunt but it was fun to watch!

 

[ctgatormom]

I am going to have to find a video... but I am about 90% certain that a team (maryland Vipers? Or Perhaps Marlins? For some reason MARYLAND is in my head?) did what I remember to be the exact same stunt a few/several years ago and it was deemed illegal at a USASF competition. I beleive it was called a "Death Drop" or a "Death Dive". I remember reading a thread about it. If someone remember or can help me research it, that would be great as I am out of town this weekend doing choreo, but I am CERTAIN a level 5 team did this stunt (and I remember it being similar, if not exact same....and they got called on it...

Here is a question to ponder... What if roles were reversed? WHAT IF Gymtyme competed this stunt and got called for it being illegal - and then using a gray area, found out it wasnt? And GT didnt get the bid? Would the USASF then try to use one of its "gray areas" to cover its a$$ and be like "Just kidding... Since it would make us look bad... Lets just go with it being illegal because prone means face down and we wont want someone getting hurt coming down like that"

I feel like "gray areas" are used for the USASF to save themselves. Funny how at first - This stunt was deemed ILLEGAL by Les - Then a day later - after commotion on the Fierceboard and throughoutthe country (Lets face it, tons of coaches were talking about this) suddenly the discovery was made that it was LEGAL by the person who "makes" and interprets the rules....

Are the rules SO POORLY written that even the GOD OF RULES cant interpret them himself???

Here is a article with them talking about the stunt but I cant find a video :( Hope this helps...
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2003-04-13/news/0304130089_1_vipers-senior-team-cheer

 

[who.are.you.callin.junior]

from the article it sounds more like what this is @1:40.....not prone, and legal we did it all year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHgxG8FJvLA

 

[cheerislove8]

from the article it sounds more like what this is @1:40.....not prone, and legal we did it all year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHgxG8FJvLA

I'm not sure if this specific rule has changed, but the rules have changed twice since the 06-07 season so just because it was legal then, doesn't mean it's legal now.

 

[catben2]

I'm not sure if this specific rule has changed, but the rules have changed twice since the 06-07 season so just because it was legal then, doesn't mean it's legal now.

If they are referring to what's in the YouTube link it's not even close to what gymtyme did. So regarless if the rules changed or not, it's not the same thing.

 

[cheerKT]

Reading this entire thread just made me go cross eyed.

 

[cheermommaRN]

Here was a point that was brought up while I was discussing this dilemma with other coaches... I find it quite valid.

***Steps on Soap Box***

First let me say, that it's MY interpretation - That we have rules for safety. Further more, when we have injuries in our sport, it is also my interpretation that the rules are what we would use to fall back on in the court of law. If someone is injured, the rules are there to backup when we are doing is safe (Ei: Braces, Progressions between levels, etc)... Soooooo....

Lets assume that this stunt is TRUELY deemed legal (Id think Les or someone would come out with a statement since its gone back and forth and has the industry in an uproar), and Little Susie Allstars decides to go a head and give this stunt a try. While working on this stunt - A flyer comes down to the prone position wrong - she injures her spleen and is injured, or lord help us, the injury results in death - Would the USASF/Les Stella be able to sit in the court of law and explain to 12 jury members that this stunt is safe to perform? Would they be able to show the jury the rule STATING that you may not come down in a PRONE POSITION - Then show a video of the stunt- And convince jury members that is NOT prone? Coming down at the prone position (or 45 degree angle as some have been known to call it) with your leg in a scorpion and your hands behind your head to be caught is dangerous. What makes this dangerous is that the organs in the stomach are not protected by any bone structure what so ever. Lets not forget the East Elite lawsuit in which a highschool athlete died due to an abdominal injury. Plus, thats not even mentioning the ruptured spleens, damaged organs, etc that occur due to direct impact with the stomach. The USASF can defend this by saying its a "gray area" but in court saying that a child got hurt in a sporting accident due to landing in a prone position with her leg and arms behind her head would NEVER hold up in court. It is great Gymtyme found a loophole and became innovative. I must add that Gymtyme is VERY deserving of this bid - NO ONE, and i mean NO ONE should be taking credit away from GT or those kids. If your upset with Gymtyme due to safety - thats your own opinion - but if you are upset about GT getting the bid - Dont take WSF's poor judging and the USASF's bad decision making out on GT - Take it out on the USASF's legality judges judging at WSF and the USASF for their handeling of the situation. Saying that the stunt is illegal and then retracting that and saying that it is legal - sounds like all the USASF did was try to say "How can we make this legal so we dont look bad?"

Last but no least - My OTHER issue with the ruling - Why in this sport, is the decision left to ONE MAN to decide if it is legal or illegal? Why is there not a panal that has say 13 (an odd number) of people in it that should review the rule and make the decision? I used 13 because our government has 12 jury members in a court case. They do that - So that they can have 12 people with diverse perspectives evaluate and deliver an answer unanamously about ruling. However, our sports fate and "gray areas" are decided by one man, and one man alone. What if in the court of law there was only ONE jury member?...

***Exits Soap Box***

Agree!! If a child was brought into the ER with a busted spleen and the coach said she was caught in that way I would chart "patient was caught in the prone position" regardless of what "angle" she was at. How is it possible to guarentee that every flyer will be caught at the correct angle every time? So if at the next comp something goes wrong and 2 groups catch at 0 degree then it's illegal? I really didn't care about whether or not GT kept their bid but it's waffling on rules like this that gets our sport laughed at.
Oh and I can't wait to see what happens when a Jr5 or Y5 try this next season....

 

[gymTyme4ever]

Show some class. No one bends the rules.

 

[Weezy]

One time at band camp..oops..wrong board.:eek:

 

[Jessica]

This whole situation is why people do not think that cheerleading is legitimate. Saying something is illegal and then legal and changing/making up definitions of words. "Prone" is not a cheerleading invented word. It is not like "one legged stunt" or "bow and arrow" or whatever other cheer word you want to use. It is a word in the english language. Making up our own definition (for whatever reason) is ridiculous and brings down the legitimacy of the entire sport.

This whole situation is about more than just gym tymes stunts being illegal and a bid being missed (or mis-given). I find it very frustrating and counter productive to furthering cheerleading when things like this happen and are handled this poorly.

 

[UnfadedSprkl]

Am I the only person on here that remembers this????

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/8908148/

Now they certainly didn't record which exact 'angle' she landed, but she did land in a 'prone' position. I would hope to see a clarification on this next year, or at least an update to the glossary, as in my USASF glossary, the term 'flat body' is not defined.

 

[King]

I just dont understand why prone is defined anyway. Its like defining the word foot in cheerleading. Umm... it is a foot. And prone means being on your stomach.

 

[wcdad]

I just dont understand why prone is defined anyway. Its like defining the word foot in cheerleading. Umm... it is a foot. And prone means being on your stomach.

Unless it is a distance.. lol