All-Star Yo, Gymtyme Is Not Playing This Year.

[Sitz_Lamos]

in addition, when i saw he was the initial attacker, i dont mean the specific topic we are on now, but this entire thread being about GT and how they "arent playing this year". that is where he initialized this attack, and thats why i commented. otherwise i think this thread would great, i love listening to people talk about how great our skills and routine are, just like ANY OTHER team on this board gets mentioned and talked about. There have also been times hes had rude comments toward Louisville. Seems to me you are just a hater and theres no changing your mind, and thats fine. But find a little respect and maybe you will get it in return.

 

[Sitz_Lamos]

Now lets get back to topic, cause we are both stubborn and will just have to agree to disagree on this subject matter.

 

[Rudags]

I just sent Les Stella an email questioning this stunt. Ill post his response as soon as I get one...

 

[CheerFanatic]

Thanks Kyle - I don't think it is, but I am not enough of an expert to argue the point. Now we will all know for sure.

 

[UsAcAt13]

i can see them top gun and spirit of texas as top 3 for worlds in this division

that could happen but i think cheer athletics my give one of those 3 a run for there money

 

[rvnblue]

Im not attacking him, he initialized the "attack" whether you say it was one or not

ive been instructed to give you the definition of prone, flat (not flatish) on your stomach, not at an angle with foot still under your shoulders. ive also been instructed to state, that maybe if you worried about your own teams as much as you are worrying about ours, you might have 9 world champion globes under your belt as well. (and thats towards you specifically, not Roger or Casey, or any other coaches for that matter).

I think if you can land in a "somewhat" prone position, then this rule is worthless and teams can get away with anything just like many teams are getting away with traveling downward while performing braced inversions.

 

[King]

Im not attacking him, he initialized the "attack" whether you say it was one or not, he was a huge D I C K about the whole thing.

ive been instructed to give you the definition of prone, flat (not flatish) on your stomach, not at an angle with foot still under your shoulders. ive also been instructed to state, that maybe if you worried about your own teams as much as you are worrying about ours, you might have 9 world champion globes under your belt as well. (and thats towards you specifically, not Roger or Casey, or any other coaches for that matter).

The definition of prone is the opposite of supine. Supine means to be face up, while prone means to be face down. The addition of the words flat body have nothing to do with the angle of the body. If you know anything about geometry then you know a flat surface can be at any angle. Parallel to the floor would mean that the body would be disallowed to be caught prone (face down) while parallel to the floor. As the rule is written, no matter YOUR or judges interpretation, it is written such that a body cannot be caught in a prone position. If the english terms are incorrect in describing what is or isnt illegal, then perhaps they need to be rewritten. But, let us take for example, when describing a 'prone' position in the AACCA rules (a high school organization that is in the grand scheme of things connected) it states that a prone is a face down position EVEN while in a pushup. Would a pushup not have the feet below the hips?

Link: http://www.cheersafety.org/2009/10/prone-landings-from-airborne-positions.html

I laughed at your instructed to tell me. I wrote something really harsh in retaliation, but all for what, I guess. If you think Worlds means more to me that our Mini Level 1 winning NCA, than you are sorely mistaken. It is a great competition, but at no point do Worlds globes stand any taller than that Mini Level 1 trophy. They are all great competitions that are the same to me.

 

[KB_Legend]

Well I'm sure you already know this but NCA/UCA college rules DO NOT equal all star rules

You do not have to be particularly smart to read and accurately interpret the rules (perhaps a bit negligent if you don't), also if you are a legality judge that happens to miss a violation (especially if it looks good) that doesn't make you stupid

Cheersport and NCA nationals are full of teams with legality deductions for skills they "competed all year at other competitions" so that doesn't hold much weight... everything is legal until you get caught

Our program has done pretty well at the world championships as well, 6 golds, 12 total globes, second ONLY to cheer athletics, and I don't have any statistics here to verify this but I would put Stingrays top three finishes per attempt up against anyones... More importantly we can (and often do) compete and win at a very high level in any/every division we enter, that's something that doesn't seem to mean to much to a lot of other people but it means more to our program than anything else.... We are also the only program to ever win 11 NCA national titles in one year (the next closest is 8 which is also us... twice)... So by all means argue with King, and defend your gym, lord knows I would... I do not, however, think it is appropriate to bring our gyms success into the equation

I hate to stick up for him I really do but King has coached a team that won a world championship and the team the ended SOT's NCA streak so he obviously has some coaching chops too... Still only makes him the second best coach in his house though

 

[King]

Well I'm sure you already know this but NCA/UCA college rules DO NOT equal all star rules

You do not have to be particularly smart to read and accurately interpret the rules (perhaps a bit negligent if you don't), also if you are a legality judge that happens to miss a violation (especially if it looks good) that doesn't make you stupid

Cheersport and NCA nationals are full of teams with legality deductions for skills they "competed all year at other competitions" so that doesn't hold much weight... everything is legal until you get caught

Our program has done pretty well at the world championships as well, 6 golds, 12 total globes, second ONLY to cheer athletics, and I don't have any statistics here to verify this but I would put Stingrays top three finishes per attempt up against anyones... More importantly we can (and often do) compete and win at a very high level in any/every division we enter, that's something that doesn't seem to mean to much to a lot of other people but it means more to our program than anything else.... We are also the only program to ever win 11 NCA national titles in one year (the next closest is 8 which is also us... twice)... So by all means argue with King, and defend your gym, lord knows I would... I do not, however, think it is appropriate to bring our gyms success into the equation

I hate to stick up for him I really do but King has coached a team that won a world championship and the team the ended SOT's NCA streak so he obviously has some coaching chops too... Still only makes him the second best coach in his house though

My wife is 4 times the coach I am and I will never disagree with that. Also way better looking. If only she read the Fierce Board to read all these nice compliments.

 

[Brenner]

I agree with King and KNOW that this stunt (performed the way it was) it is not legal.
I also think.. that while I am sure that Sitz_Lamos loves his gym and gym owner...Coming on here and and calling someone a D I C K and telling him what he "has been instructed" to tell him is amazlingly immature (for lack of a less offevsive word).

OK to move on-
Here is my question. What can be done to the Event Producers that miss a big deduction like this? I am sure if the team recieved a legalities penalty...someone else would have gotten a worlds bid. This happened to me earlier in the season. A team in a "worlds bid division" did an illegal pyramid and got a bid (without getting a deduction)....and I was the next team in line for the bid.

 

[cheerinfo]

Brenner posed a great question. What is to be done? As it stands now, judging panels are hired by the event producers, not the USASF or one set judges pool. They can hire who THEY want. So they are responsible in the end for a penalty being missed...or not being missed, but just not being assessed. I think these companies need to be held accountable to some extent and need to make good on errors that are caused because of mistakes or other issues with their judging panels. You cannot really fault panel judges because that is more subjective. But with safety, it is pretty black and white. And in the end, if there is debate, you can always call or text or email Les to get a final word on a call to get it right.

I also agree with Brenner that this stunt, as performed, it definitely illegal. I am anxious to see what Les has to say and his explanation (one way or the other).

edited - grammar error lol

 

[Brenner]

I know this will never happen ....but.... I would love to have a couple of "flags" given to each program and when we see something that is "in question" we can just throw them on the performance floor like they do at football....lol

I am kinda tired of hearing "we can't discuss another teams routine or deductions"

Maybe coaches and owners should check with their event producers and ask what happens if something like this comes up.
Probably before they write the big check.

 

[cheerinfo]

I do not have a problem if a coach "challenges" a ruling I may have called or not called. I am also not so vain as to think that I never make mistakes. If there is question, I consult several people, the end all be all being Les Stella if it comes to that. I think that coaches have every right to question legalities. That area is not all that subjective. I understand some rules end up having loopholes unintentionally, but for the most part, legalities are pretty black and white. So if there is question, coaches should have a course of action they can take to get it reviewed. As far as bids handed out to teams that erroneously were not called on something...not sure what the solution is for that. But there needs to be one IMO

 

[King]

I do not have a problem if a coach "challenges" a ruling I may have called or not called. I am also not so vain as to think that I never make mistakes. If there is question, I consult several people, the end all be all being Les Stella if it comes to that. I think that coaches have every right to question legalities. That area is not all that subjective. I understand some rules end up having loopholes unintentionally, but for the most part, legalities are pretty black and white. So if there is question, coaches should have a course of action they can take to get it reviewed. As far as bids handed out to teams that erroneously were not called on something...not sure what the solution is for that. But there needs to be one IMO

I am not sure you can retroactively go take back a bid. But what about this solution. For a missed legality call that WOULD have affected a bid recipient that competition has to give out one less bid the next year (from whatever type the team with the illegality received). Think companies would start paying attention more then?

 

[wcdad]

I know this will never happen ....but.... I would love to have a couple of "flags" given to each program and when we see something that is "in question" we can just throw them on the performance floor like they do at football....lol

I am kinda tired of hearing "we can't discuss another teams routine or deductions"

Maybe coaches and owners should check with their event producers and ask what happens if something like this comes up.
Probably before they write the big check.

One of the things I read about Cheersport last year and the use of Dartfish for replays was to handle things like this. That the Judge would be able to push a button to mark a spot on the tape and they could go back after the routine and review what they saw or thought they saw. It was my understanding that Dartfish would also allow the judge to rotate the view to see the skill from the front and sides.. It would not be the different programs pushing the button but the judges.