All-Star Illegal Elements (just To Raise Awareness)

[WorkToWin]

I don't know if it was intentional, just messing around... or didn't catch that in the rules. I can't even watch the video because my school computer blocks youtube. However, either way Courtney is experienced and intelligent enough to not put her athletes in danger. Just because a skill isn't legal doesn't mean certain athletes and teams couldn't perform it well. For example, the boys who throw triples and double backs (Cheer Athletics, Gym Tyme, Top Gun, Cali). We have all seen their 'playing around' videos on youtube. Could some of the boys at Gym Tyme throw a triple safer than those janky fulls thrown by athletes who barely have a tuck? Their triples (and double backs) are much safer than a lot of the legal fulls and doubles thrown. Just because a skill is illegal doesn't mean certain athletes can't perform them safely.

Regardless if they knew it was illegal, and was just trying new things; or if they made a mistake and missed it... You can't say that it was terrible of the coaches to have them do an illegal stunt because it was unsafe.

 

[ztaprincess]

But many of those videos on youtube are of them on their own time and not during practice. I wonder if it is Victor, Tannaz, or James teaching their athletes those skills or are they learning them on their own? Just because something illegal can be performed perfectly doesn't mean it should be done regularly at practice. No one is saying that Courtney doesn't know her athletes well enough to know that they can do what they are doing safely, BUT it only takes 1 injury from it to cause an uproar and unecessary attention to cheer. People will look at an injury that happened doing something illegal differently then one doing something that is legal.

 

[lollypop]

The way I understood it, no. You are covered if you have taken all reasonable precautions (properly matted surface, progressions taught, safety rules followed) but if you know the rules and break the rules they don't get your back.

that's my understanding of it too. As such I can't understand how it is worth the risk to intentionally train illegal moves. No matter how well prepared an athlete is injuries do happen.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

I'm over the whole "Courtney knows what she's doing" bull.
The element was COMPETED on November 6th at a Cheersport competition, so also stop feeding everyone the "it was a showcase" load of crap 'cause they've competed it, and I'm sure would continue to compete it. Maybe this thread will actually show them that it's illegal and they'll take it out. Maybe not, though.
The element in the stunt, is it only illegal because there's no pause between when the flyer is caught and when her hands touch the ground? So, like people have said, it's still considered one movement and she's inverting?

ETA: I'm not saying Courtney doesn't know what she's doing, but regardless of her intelligence level, she's put illegal elements in a routine that has been competed, not just showcased, competed.

 

[drewpate]

But many of those videos on youtube are of them on their own time and not during practice. I wonder if it is Victor, Tannaz, or James teaching their athletes those skills or are they learning them on their own? Just because something illegal can be performed perfectly doesn't mean it should be done regularly at practice. No one is saying that Courtney doesn't know her athletes well enough to know that they can do what they are doing safely, BUT it only takes 1 injury from it to cause an uproar and unecessary attention to cheer. People will look at an injury that happened doing something illegal differently then one doing something that is legal.

I don't think it's important if a coach teaches a skill or not that's illegal as far as it pertains to this discussion, having them compete them, maybe. And I wouldnt be surprised if some of them were, I've seen vids of victor doing a full in on hardfloor at nca and a double in basket, so that combined with years of experience would let me think that he at least is qualified to teach them.
Heck, we had a cheerleader at my gym who we realized should be able to double back when she was working set drills into the pit from the air mat while working on her double full. We taught her the skill and she was progressing properly and would most likely have had it if it she had not been injured (school cheer...... Ugh). All these skills are legal (maybe just not in cheer). The USAF doesnt own what we can do with our bodies, so if there is a naturally talented athlete who wants to work their butt off doing super elite stuff, it's not really anyone else's to judge if it's done safely.

And as far as illegalities in the routine, safety wise I don't see too much risk except the touching the ground straight from the top, and that's not a huge risk. If other gyms want to ignore the rules so be it, better for my teams. I just feel sorry for the kids when they lose because of coaching mistakes like this. But if these skills are demonstrated to be safe enough , they may be legal next go around with the rules.

It reminds me of when I was in Dallas two years ago and les asked for a show of hands on who would allow tuck baskets in sr 5. A decent majority said yes, but an even larger majority said they wouldn't do them simply because a kick double is harder and would score better. Heck even executing a 'good' toe touch basket is harder than a back tuck basket.

 

[tumbleyoda]

In every sport I participated in, there were always one or two coaches who seemed to be "smarter" than everyone else, who could get away with things that others could not or would not even try, who would push to bend the rules as far as they could and would only back down if they were pushed back very hard by an equally strong person. IMO Courtney is one of those types of coaches. Not that it is good or bad, just is.

But I also believe that by whatever their major competitions are the elements will either be removed or altered to fit enough of the rules and if there is a grey area, that is where it will try to be placed. I just hope the numerous teams, programs and coaches that follow that program and try so hard to be just like them don't try to do the same thing because they don't have the "pull" of this program and it wont work out to good for them.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I don't think it's important if a coach teaches a skill or not that's illegal as far as it pertains to this discussion, having them compete them, maybe. And I wouldnt be surprised if some of them were, I've seen vids of victor doing a full in on hardfloor at nca and a double in basket, so that combined with years of experience would let me think that he at least is qualified to teach them.
Heck, we had a cheerleader at my gym who we realized should be able to double back when she was working set drills into the pit from the air mat while working on her double full. We taught her the skill and she was progressing properly and would most likely have had it if it she had not been injured (school cheer...... Ugh). All these skills are legal (maybe just not in cheer). The USAF doesnt own what we can do with our bodies, so if there is a naturally talented athlete who wants to work their butt off doing super elite stuff, it's not really anyone else's to judge if it's done safely.

And as far as illegalities in the routine, safety wise I don't see too much risk except the touching the ground straight from the top, and that's not a huge risk. If other gyms want to ignore the rules so be it, better for my teams. I just feel sorry for the kids when they lose because of coaching mistakes like this. But if these skills are demonstrated to be safe enough , they may be legal next go around with the rules.

It reminds me of when I was in Dallas two years ago and les asked for a show of hands on who would allow tuck baskets in sr 5. A decent majority said yes, but an even larger majority said they wouldn't do them simply because a kick double is harder and would score better. Heck even executing a 'good' toe touch basket is harder than a back tuck basket.

Pretty reasonable way of stating things to my way of thinking. And let me be clear I think you are being balanced, appropriate and fair in your comments. In 11 years I don't ever remember getting a penalty for an illegality on YE, JE or SE. I'm sure it has happened sometime, somewhere but I don't remember unless it was when a grip was lost on a pyramid. That said, there is a bit of grandstanding that goes on in these threads that seems self-aggrandising at the expense of a respected coach that happens to be a good friend. I have not seen anyone seriously injured in her gym in practice or competition doing anything illegal, or deemed to be overly risky. All the injuries I see seem to be individual athletes pushing their skills especially when tired and due to their own motivation. My concern is that others use these type of issues to in some way diminish a reputation, it's not the first time I have seen it happen here. Nothing wrong with looking at a video and pointing out something that may be illegal. Nothing wrong with pointing out a public video may have a negative impact on other gyms or programs. I see that as helpful. But when we wander in the area of questioning professionalism or risking injury or liability, I think maybe that goes a bit too far.

 

[carolinagirl823]

Pretty reasonable way of stating things to my way of thinking. And let me be clear I think you are being balanced, appropriate and fair in your comments. In 11 years I don't ever remember getting a penalty for an illegality on YE, JE or SE. I'm sure it has happened sometime, somewhere but I don't remember unless it was when a grip was lost on a pyramid. That said, there is a bit of grandstanding that goes on in these threads that seems self-aggrandising at the expense of a respected coach that happens to be a good friend. I have not seen anyone seriously injured in her gym in practice or competition doing anything illegal, or deemed to be overly risky. All the injuries I see seem to be individual athletes pushing their skills especially when tired and due to their own motivation. My concern is that others use these type of issues to in some way diminish a reputation, it's not the first time I have seen it happen here. Nothing wrong with looking at a video and pointing out something that may be illegal. Nothing wrong with pointing out a public video may have a negative impact on other gyms or programs. I see that as helpful. But when we wander in the area of questioning professionalism or risking injury or liability, I think maybe that goes a bit too far.

I agree 100%. This thread has become a personal attack on Courtney. (Which I am not surprised about considering those who have been the most active participants in this thread)

 

[ztaprincess]

I agree 100%. This thread has become a personal attack on Courtney. (Which I am not surprised about considering those who have been the most active participants in this thread)

Where has it become a personal attack on Courtney? Courtney is an amazing coach, not sure who would say otherwise, but it doesn't make the things pointed out any less illegal. If it were Top Gun, Cheer Athletics, World Cup or heck even with Gym Tyme last year it would still be called out and discussed. Maybe I am reading posts and interpreting tem differently but I haven't read any that have said anything negative towards Courtney other then people are confused why she would have them do something illegal. I am sure she knows what her athletes are capable of but like I said before it only takes 1 injury for things to turn upside down. It is about safety not about Courtney as a person.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

Everyone was all over Gym Tyme last year when they had a stunt that many thought were illegal but no one said "well why don't you ask James yourself instead of discussing it here". Instead many people were up in arms because it was dangerous. Now that Rich and SEVERAL others have brought it to people's attention that CEA has several things in their routines that are illegal or at least performed illegally then it shouldn't be discussed? These things are just as dangerous as any other stunt that is called out and discussed so get over it. Sorry but if you are going to get onto Rich for calling out illegalities then point fingers at the others who have posted on here that it is illegal as well. Heck Rich didn't even make this thread but you are still attacking him.

These attacks on people for calling out a team that you love is becoming rather annoying and not needed at all. This thread is nice to have because there are some people that had no idea something like that was illegal but now that they can see it they will know that it is a no no and shouldn't be done.

Or rather these attacks on another team you hate (being a professional coach) is rather annoying. It wasn't just this thread. He made sure to delete his fb status so that it didn't reflect negatively should other people happen to read it (as the link is no longer available in my cache). I assure you it was a bit uncalled for, as were the other ugly comments. If he really wants to "help us", or other athletes, I don't believe posting and allowing nasty posts about our program are the way to go about it. He may have deleted it to save face, but not before I got a screen shot.

If this were a "healthy" discussion (as others in this thread have managed to do, i.e. Kingston) I think there's a way to go about it in a professional manner. I'm sorry but I feel like trash talking and snide comments isn't exactly being professional. If there was/is a legality issue that a USASF coach noted, going about it a certain way would garner more civilized discussion in my opinion, rather than the way he chose to handle it.

I get what you're saying if you feel it is unsafe and afraid of someone else copying it, etc. bc they think it's legal since CEA did it. Totally fine, I get your point. I am not aware if the specific issues being discussed are or aren't legal. I trust Courtney and her knowledge of the rules. I'm sure if she had questions/concerns about certain elements being legal/illegal, she would address them properly. So as far as that part of the conversation, I still stand by my statement about emailing Courtney w/concerns...especially about safety issues...I would think Rich, a USASF coach, being as concerned as he is for the safety of any athletes, would feel obligated to draw it to her attention...right? Sure it's great that if the elements in question are illegal, that they're being discussed in a civil manner to help prevent harm (and as wcdad and someone else said, to "help" our team), but coming from him and the things I read, I don't believe he's drawing it to everyone's attention out of pure concern. It's not just this thread, so I apologize to you since you aren't aware of the other things I mentioned.

I've never really had a problem w/him (and still don't) bc ultimately I trust Courtney. I was surprised to see some of the things I saw (read) bc I did think he was a bit above that. I'm not trying to make this a "hate" this person thread, but I do feel like I have a right to express my opinions as well, given the context in which I have seen things.

Sorry that it bothered/annoyed you.

 

[xtremeteal4life]

I'm over the whole "Courtney knows what she's doing" bull.
The element was COMPETED on November 6th at a Cheersport competition, so also stop feeding everyone the "it was a showcase" load of crap 'cause they've competed it, and I'm sure would continue to compete it. Maybe this thread will actually show them that it's illegal and they'll take it out. Maybe not, though.
The element in the stunt, is it only illegal because there's no pause between when the flyer is caught and when her hands touch the ground? So, like people have said, it's still considered one movement and she's inverting?

ETA: I'm not saying Courtney doesn't know what she's doing, but regardless of her intelligence level, she's put illegal elements in a routine that has been competed, not just showcased, competed.

I was responding to the video taken at the X-Evolution, not a competition. I know she changes things all the time, so I don't/didn't know if it was the same (and/or as I've already said, if it is legal or illegal). :chillpill:

 

[xtremeteal4life]

Pretty reasonable way of stating things to my way of thinking. And let me be clear I think you are being balanced, appropriate and fair in your comments. In 11 years I don't ever remember getting a penalty for an illegality on YE, JE or SE. I'm sure it has happened sometime, somewhere but I don't remember unless it was when a grip was lost on a pyramid. That said, there is a bit of grandstanding that goes on in these threads that seems self-aggrandising at the expense of a respected coach that happens to be a good friend. I have not seen anyone seriously injured in her gym in practice or competition doing anything illegal, or deemed to be overly risky. All the injuries I see seem to be individual athletes pushing their skills especially when tired and due to their own motivation. My concern is that others use these type of issues to in some way diminish a reputation, it's not the first time I have seen it happen here. Nothing wrong with looking at a video and pointing out something that may be illegal. Nothing wrong with pointing out a public video may have a negative impact on other gyms or programs. I see that as helpful. But when we wander in the area of questioning professionalism or risking injury or liability, I think maybe that goes a bit too far.

Thank you :cool:

 

[DJ]

I agree 100%. This thread has become a personal attack on Courtney. (Which I am not surprised about considering those who have been the most active participants in this thread)

And, people think I didn't see it coming from the start. This is thread #2 this week!

And for Rich, I guess it's a good thing SSX is attending BUTBT this weekend instead of their normal bid comp, WSF Indy (where you'll be judging). Seeing how you're "unbiased".

Let the record reflect, I do not attack unless provoked.

 

[newcheerdad]

Just like the deal last year with Gym Tyme, the best people to make the call about the legality (or lack thereof) of a particular stunt as the USASF rules gurus.

However, bringing this up is not a personal attack on Courtney. When you run an elite program, you get more attention than Craptastic All-Stars or Trannycats Fierce. Your routines are going to be scrutinized far more closely. There's nothing I've seen in this thread that suggests that Courtney is a bad coach who does not have the safety of her athletes in mind.

I completely understand the idea of defending your friend, but I think there's an overreaction here.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Much like the rules discussion, I think this whole 'personal' discussion has reached a grey area. I love when things match.

That being said, I just happened to watch TG 08 (a friend had posted it on her wall reminiscing about her favorite routines), where I saw that guy tumble to a split. Another grey area I remember discussing on here years back..did he tumble to the ground? Does his foot slightly touching a split second before mean he didn't tumble to the ground (which I believe is the rule it brought into question)? Although I believe at the time, we avoided edging towards personal attacks, and more of the discussion was whether or not they could 'stretch' the rules because they were a 'big gym.'