All-Star Redfining Positions In Stunts

[King]

at 1:29 in the video is a pyramid our Level 3 plus 1 coach on a day where we were missing a few people were able to put up within about 5 mins

This would be "outlawed" We can currently put up extended stunts with just 2 people on the ground, the grid is requiring 3 which would then outlaw doing it with only 2, sure you can still do the same stunt but you have to have another person dedicated to the stunt.

So that will be the front spot 2.0, Hi Suzy, I just need you to stand near this stunt so that is legal. Why is my little suzy just standing there? Because we get more points from your suzy just standing than we do with her helping in the stunt, she's also there just in case the stunt falls

As well I assume you are speaking of the group stunts, not the coed (which being able to toss hands with the confidence of no spot at all is NOT a level 3 ability) suzy would just be involved in the group stunt in a pyramid, wouldn't she? So It is a moot point, Suzy would just be involved in the pyramid group stunt itself.

 

[CGAcheer]

First, that is a pyramid... NOT a stunt. So, from JUST a stunt discussion, not a pyramid discussion what is being outlawed?

well they can all do the individual stunts in the pyramid without it being a pyramid, More about showing that yes a level 3 team is very capable of safely executing the skill with only 2 people on the ground dedicated to the stunt.

so any of those individual stunts with the exception of the prep on the left would be illegal because we didn't have enough people

 

[CGAcheer]

As well I assume you are speaking of the group stunts, not the coed (which being able to toss hands with the confidence of no spot at all is NOT a level 3 ability) suzy would just be involved in the group stunt in a pyramid, wouldn't she? So It is a moot point, Suzy would just be involved in the pyramid group stunt itself.

under the grid we would need two suzy's spotting the extended girls

which with being a team of 13 on that day, we didn't have available suzy's to put near the extended stunts

 

[King]

well they can all do the individual stunts in the pyramid without it being a pyramid, More about showing that yes a level 3 team is very capable of safely executing the skill with only 2 people on the ground dedicated to the stunt.

so any of those individual stunts with the exception of the prep on the left would be illegal because we didn't have enough people

But that is a straw man argument. First the half on the right would be legal. Second, the toss hands in the middle already requires your suzy example to just stand there. Third, I am sure pyramid rules exceptions by connecting form the ground could be added.

 

[CGAcheer]

I guess I could make a video of my girls doing the same stunt apart from the pyramid tonight and post it. But it would be a waste of practice time, to do something solely for fierceboard discussions sake.

But essentially as for discussions of the capabilities of typical level 3 kids, I feel that I could take any of my flyers and find two bases on my team that could make a simple straight up 2 base lib hit. I could also take my 2 best flyers, and put any two bases on that team under them and hit a straight up lib.

Not that we are going to do that since it is basic a stunt, and we can use 3 people and do full ups, release moves, transitions and whatnot that I don't think that most of them are capable of with only 2 bases.

 

[CGAcheer]

point is that I think that 2 level 3-5 bases can safely cradle from an extended position

The grid has it varying by flyer foot position but for the most part needing 3 catchers even if you only need 2 bases

 

[BlueCat]

point is that I think that 2 level 3-5 bases can safely cradle from an extended position

The grid has it varying by flyer foot position but for the most part needing 3 catchers even if you only need 2 bases

Your opposition to those particular numbers on the grid is noted. I would really love to talk more about the "big picture" if possible.

 

[CGAcheer]

Your opposition to those particular numbers on the grid is noted. I would really love to talk more about the "big picture" if possible.

big picture

I think losing the spotter grip terminology is great.

I think that grids can be good, but cheer rules might be too complex for a concise grid.
with pyramids level 3 can release with two separate arm grips, level 4 can release with one bracer can invert with 2, Level 5 can invert with 1 bracer, then you add in different numbers of bases for certain pyramid skills and you end up with a grid with 20+ columns

I think it is tough to think of all of the possible stunts/pyramids and put it to a grid and its tough to put all of the tumbling combinations into a grid. Such as a running bhs tuck and a front handspring punch front are both running handsprings into tucks but one is legal at level 3 and one isn't.

 

[BlueCat]

big picture

I think losing the spotter grip terminology is great.

I think that grids can be good, but cheer rules might be too complex for a concise grid.
with pyramids level 3 can release with two separate arm grips, level 4 can release with one bracer can invert with 2, Level 5 can invert with 1 bracer, then you add in different numbers of bases for certain pyramid skills and you end up with a grid with 20+ columns

I think it is tough to think of all of the possible stunts/pyramids and put it to a grid and its tough to put all of the tumbling combinations into a grid. Such as a running bhs tuck and a front handspring punch front are both running handsprings into tucks but one is legal at level 3 and one isn't.

I would certainly agree that the current rule structure is not easily translated to a simple-ish grid. My goal was to see if the rules could potentially be simplified enough to make that possible. Eliminating the distinction between a "base" and a "base/spotter" is an example of how you can eliminate a ton of verbal gymnastics and not lose the spirit of the rule, IMO. I was hoping to find other examples where the benefits of simplicity could potentially outweigh the benefits of being incredibly detailed.

 

[BlueCat]

Also, "attentive athletes" doesn't really do it for me as a term. That is intended as a placeholder name until someone suggests a better one.

 

[BlueCat]

Added some stuff, let me know if we are on the right track. (There are multiple sheets in the document) Please remember that this is definitely a work in progress and MANY more adjustments/refinements would need to go into this before it would ever be given serious consideration. We also have to really work on the layout/presentation. Anyway, hopefully you get the idea.

Potential Rules Grid

Also, as an FYI - this would be for the 2013-2014 season, NOT the upcoming season.

 

[CGAcheer]

Added some stuff, let me know if we are on the right track. (There are multiple sheets in the document) Please remember that this is definitely a work in progress and MANY more adjustments/refinements would need to go into this before it would ever be given serious consideration. We also have to really work on the layout/presentation. Anyway, hopefully you get the idea.

Potential Rules Grid

Also, as an FYI - this would be for the 2013-2014 season, NOT the upcoming season.

I know my base and catcher number objections have been noted, but i think in general it is moving off of the right track.

I was looking at it while it was changing which may contribute to it, but its as if you are taking the existing rules and trying to put a grid to it which is getting overly complicated.

I think the rules need to be drastically simplified, to fit a simple grid. Doing that, may make some stuff legal and make other illegal.

for example with running tumbling
(round off's are allowed at all levels)
Level 1 - constant contact with the ground
level 2 - contact with the ground through inversion
Level 3 - single tucked flips
Level 4 - non twisting flips
Level 5 - single twisting flips
Level 6 - double twisting flips
Level 7 - triple twisting flips

I think that level of simplification needs to happen before we can move to an effective grid

 

[CGAcheer]

Also, "attentive athletes" doesn't really do it for me as a term. That is intended as a placeholder name until someone suggests a better one.

POGs
People On the Ground

 

[CGAcheer]

I know my base and catcher number objections have been noted, but i think in general it is moving off of the right track.

I was looking at it while it was changing which may contribute to it, but its as if you are taking the existing rules and trying to put a grid to it which is getting overly complicated.

I think the rules need to be drastically simplified, to fit a simple grid. Doing that, may make some stuff legal and make other illegal.

for example with running tumbling
(round off's are allowed at all levels)
Level 1 - constant contact with the ground
level 2 - contact with the ground through inversion
Level 3 - single tucked flips
Level 4 - non twisting flips
Level 5 - single twisting flips
Level 6 - double twisting flips
Level 7 - triple twisting flips

I think that level of simplification needs to happen before we can move to an effective grid

@BlueCat let me know if you are interested in me doing the above with the rest of the rules

 

[BlueCat]

I know my base and catcher number objections have been noted, but i think in general it is moving off of the right track.

I was looking at it while it was changing which may contribute to it, but its as if you are taking the existing rules and trying to put a grid to it which is getting overly complicated.

I think the rules need to be drastically simplified, to fit a simple grid. Doing that, may make some stuff legal and make other illegal.

for example with running tumbling
(round off's are allowed at all levels)
Level 1 - constant contact with the ground
level 2 - contact with the ground through inversion
Level 3 - single tucked flips
Level 4 - non twisting flips
Level 5 - single twisting flips
Level 6 - double twisting flips
Level 7 - triple twisting flips

I think that level of simplification needs to happen before we can move to an effective grid

I see where you are going, but overall, I don't think there are enough teams at competitions to warrant having any more levels. If anything, I think there should probably be one fewer level and perhaps one fewer age bracket than what we currently have.

Also note: The rules as they are seem enormously complicated to me, and I have been involved in their creation. I cannot imagine what a somewhat "rookie" coach thinks when they try to tackle them. I like the grid idea in general, because of how simple it is to look up specific skills at specific levels, but I tend to think along those lines anyway. It may not be possible to go from "enormously complicated" to "simple", but I hope to get at least part way there.

I have had a little more success than I was anticipating in putting some of the other aspects of cheer into tables, but they still need to be refined and vetted a LOT before they are "ready for prime time"