All-Star I'm Going To Cheat

[Just-a-Mom]

Just want to make note that I never defending anyone to the ends of the earth. What happened was wrong. What we did was wrong. There's no denying that.

I took issue with the rumor, gossip and innuendo in regards to her personal life, family, etc being used.

Nice to see you Just-a-Mom, and I hope your girls are doing well!!! Won't be back to this thread again. Give me a wave in another thread!!!

You were not part of the legions of followers. :) You were part of the sooooooo small legions of sanity.

 

[Drkilluzionz]

I'm of the personal mindset that penalizing gyms caught cheating might created some awkward moments and hurt your business in the short term, but the long term gain in confidence from the rest of your 99.9 customers easily offsets that awkwardness. At NCA,we have no problem investigating claims of ineligibiilty or giving a customer a deduction because we know those are the right things to do.

But that doesn't mean we like it. And please understand, it's a big step to take to declare a gym/program/customer has cheated. And not because we might lose that gym's registration fees in the short term (I'm so tired of everyone saying it's all about the $$), but because with that declaration comes the knowledge that I am responsible for job, business, livelihood and career for a gym owner.

There has only been one case, to my knowledge, where my gut knew the program blatantly cheated, but as a company that believes in the process and scope of authority, we couldn't do anything but find the accused party 'not guilty' of cheating (I did just say 'not guilty' as opposed to 'innocent.'). There are only so many things an Event Producer can do to verify eligibility short of strip searching the athletes.

We can only ask for appropriate documentation so many times and after having met our requests so many times, there is no choice acknowledge that the accused have gone above and beyond to satisfy our requests. I know we are viewed at as the ones who need to find out the truth--we aren't private investigators, we aren't attorneys, and our backgrounds and expertise doesn't support our taking on such an investigative role.

That's why the USASF Athlete Identification program is going to be so valuable. It's standardized, its regulated, and above all else, it's verified by birth certificates and parent's authorization/signature, a signature that was signed by the parent well before they have a motivation to lie about their daughter's age.

I didn't always take this stance but I actually can sympathisize and understand the stance of EP's who at one point or another hit a wall...but in the end it won't change that in a business where several of us have been charged with enriching and guiding young athletes lives...certain individuals have corrupted their jobs, livelihoods and careers and are ok with an "at all costs" viewpoint and methodology.

I've had a lot of bitterness over the past year...to the programs I've seen cheat, to those who in my eyes weren't doing enough to rectify the situation and to myself for not being as vocal as I felt I should be. In hindsight the passion behind my fire hasn't died down yet...seeing those gyms and knowing what they teach their kids sickens me...and what I'm saying now is that there has to be an answer other than "oh we'll" and a stern warning that theyre being watched.

I'm going to go a step further and be selfish and go on record as saying "I've worked too damn hard" legally and with no mal intent to accomplish the goals I've set for these young athletes just to have someone see financial gain in it and ucerp all process' that as coaches and owners weve agreed to follow.

Im totally ok with "If it ain't broke don't fix it" but this system is clearly broken and I don't see anyone moving to make repairs...

 

[SarahS]

If one of the things that would stop this type of cheating is a robust athlete registration system that has a central database with athletes' birth certificates and photos, and the USASF clearly isn't in a place to implement such a thing right now, why doesn't someone from, oh, I don't know, a well-known gym with a lot of industry credibility and known as an industry leader and innovator create one for it's athletes and allow other gyms to participate on a voluntary basis? You could advertise your participation in the system and sell it as evidence of program integrity and adherence to a voluntary industry standard, much like any other businesses do. I know that many people have the computing chops to create such a system, so what are the impediments to its creation? Would participation in something like this, on a voluntary basis, actually be detrimental in some way to programs, because, basically, they would be forcing themselves to completely adhere to rules that everyone is *supposed* to play by but that are virtually unenforceable at this point?

 

[AndrewSky]

Is this seriously a thread? Dear lord the Mayans were right after all...

 

[Nothanks]

.. I just think its time the USASF fields a TRUE ethics and discipline committee. There is plenty to work on. I don't think coaches with personal agendas can be expected to do this fairly. I understand they cannot pay for this right now, but it needs to happen.

I graduate and will be looking for a job in may ;)anyone else?

 

[MissBee]

I just still struggle to understand why anyone would WANT to cheat? A "win" means nothing if cheat to you have to cheat to give yourself a lead.

I feel like we didn't really win when another team has lots of falls, or has someone out injured that's normally on the team. I feel like it's a true win when everyone hits (which never happens, but I'd love it)!

 

[MissBee]

If one of the things that would stop this type of cheating is a robust athlete registration system that has a central database with athletes' birth certificates and photos, and the USASF clearly isn't in a place to implement such a thing right now, why doesn't someone from, oh, I don't know, a well-known gym with a lot of industry credibility and known as an industry leader and innovator create one for it's athletes and allow other gyms to participate on a voluntary basis? You could advertise your participation in the system and sell it as evidence of program integrity and adherence to a voluntary industry standard, much like any other businesses do. I know that many people have the computing chops to create such a system, so what are the impediments to its creation? Would participation in something like this, on a voluntary basis, actually be detrimental in some way to programs, because, basically, they would be forcing themselves to completely adhere to rules that everyone is *supposed* to play by but that are virtually unenforceable at this point?

It doesn't even need to be created! The software is out there and used by USA Hockey, US Lacrosse, youth soccer and baseball programs.

 

[BlueCat]

Regarding rampant cheating: In my mind, the biggest problem by far is that hardly anyone reports it. Until the USASF creates an FBI-type committee that actively searches out and investigates cheating (and I'm not sure that we want to go that road), they have to rely on evidence that is reported and turned in. There are MANY rumors out there, but rarely does anyone take the time and risk their own reputation to file an official complaint. The USASF cannot prosecute what does not get turned in to the disciplinary committee.

I'm not saying that the process is perfect, or that mistakes have not been made. However, if no one reports an issue that you can be sure that nothing will be done.

 

[CoachTamara]

I didn't always take this stance but I actually can sympathisize and understand the stance of EP's who at one point or another hit a wall...but in the end it won't change that in a business where several of us have been charged with enriching and guiding young athletes lives...certain individuals have corrupted their jobs, livelihoods and careers and are ok with an "at all costs" viewpoint and methodology.

I've had a lot of bitterness over the past year...to the programs I've seen cheat, to those who in my eyes weren't doing enough to rectify the situation and to myself for not being as vocal as I felt I should be. In hindsight the passion behind my fire hasn't died down yet...seeing those gyms and knowing what they teach their kids sickens me...and what I'm saying now is that there has to be an answer other than "oh we'll" and a stern warning that theyre being watched.

I'm going to go a step further and be selfish and go on record as saying "I've worked too damn hard" legally and with no mal intent to accomplish the goals I've set for these young athletes just to have someone see financial gain in it and ucerp all process' that as coaches and owners weve agreed to follow.

Im totally ok with "If it ain't broke don't fix it" but this system is clearly broken and I don't see anyone moving to make repairs...

YES times a million... To everything you've said. It's really discouraging to be in an industry that doesn't seem to care as much as I do. I told my fiance last night that at this point I would leave coaching if I felt like I could work in the industry to move it forward, because that impacts so many more people and it's needed. If it doesn't happen soon, it's not going to happen. Cheer was small enough that this wasn't needed before, but now that it has exploded, it has to happen. But, it's too big to make changes now. No matter what, people are mad. Well, that sucks for them, but you either get on board or get out.
I thought about this a lot last night (because I obviously have nothing to do). And let me throw it out there, much of this stuff has been discussed and some is trying to be implemented, but I think it all needs to fit together and happen together or nothing works. This is an all or nothing type of deal. I'm sure this is going to be long, so I apologize in advance.
First, athletes need registration cards with photos on them and a unique registration number. This is NOT that expensive, and it is not uncommon to have to do this in other sports. If it costs $5, that is a drop in the bucket. That is not going to be the make or break cost for kids to get involved in cheer. The parents go online, register their child, and someone verify the birthdate. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think parents are going to be more honest than coaches and owners. Most parents won't even think about inputing a birthdate and once it's done, it's done. The child gets a card, and they bring it to every competition. I could even seen it where the coaches have the cards on a keyring, sorted by team to bring instead of expecting the kids to keep up with them. When they register teams, they submit a roster with the child, registration number, and birthdate on it. A copy of this roster goes to someone working backstage and when you check in, they compare the cards to the roster (ensuring things match up and pictures are actual kids-not another kid using someone else's name and birthdate). This person signs off that they believe the roster and the kids match up, and boom-we have someone accountable for saying it's all a match. This makes it easy to track when the same kid is on 5 teams, and when birthdates don't match up. If they register once and simply renew, they can't change their birthdate. If they have the guts to register wrong in the first place, then it'll really suck when senior year comes and they've "aged" out and cannot cheer.
Second, there needs to be an ethics and discipline committee that deals with allegations. I know some people think it's ok for coaches to be on this, but I don't. It's just a personal thing. I am a nobody coach, but I can easily see there are many relationships in the industry that are beyond local gyms... I have coaching friends in other states, and I know about drama in other states. I don't believe that someone currently coaching can provide an unbiased opinion on disciplining teams. I don't think it's right. The people making decisions cannot have anything to gain from punishing one team and not another. I don't think these people should be out of touch with the industry, but I don't think they can be making money as a coach/owner and making decisions that impact another person's business (which could easily be their rival or friend). This committee needs to take all allegations and research them, and hand down decisions. Some allegations will be proven false, and that's fine-but at least there is somewhere to go and a proper channel to follow, no matter if you are a big gym or small gym. You have equal treatment.

Ok, those are my main points. I'll stop because I could easily write another five paragraphs or so, and I'm not that exciting. If you read that you deserve a cookie. :)

 

[tumbleyoda]

Regarding rampant cheating: In my mind, the biggest problem by far is that hardly anyone reports it. Until the USASF creates an FBI-type committee that actively searches out and investigates cheating (and I'm not sure that we want to go that road), they have to rely on evidence that is reported and turned in. There are MANY rumors out there, but rarely does anyone take the time and risk their own reputation to file an official complaint. The USASF cannot prosecute what does not get turned in to the disciplinary committee.

I'm not saying that the process is perfect, or that mistakes have not been made. However, if no one reports an issue that you can be sure that nothing will be done.

One of the things that somehow needs to be addressed is the unwillingness of many programs to go on the record if they suspect a program of cheating. Too many times I heard - "we are too small no one will pay us any attention; they will say we are just mad that we lost to them; we will get blackballed by the EP's and other gyms in the area if we turn them in; we don't want to be the ones seen as turning them in but can we get some drama started so someone else will turn them in? Or the

Which IMHO are all cowards responses to a real problem that if genuine and backed by factual evidence needs to be fixed. Why complain someone is cheating if you won't say nothing?

 

[12stepCheermom]

YES times a million... To everything you've said. It's really discouraging to be in an industry that doesn't seem to care as much as I do. I told my fiance last night that at this point I would leave coaching if I felt like I could work in the industry to move it forward, because that impacts so many more people and it's needed. If it doesn't happen soon, it's not going to happen. Cheer was small enough that this wasn't needed before, but now that it has exploded, it has to happen. But, it's too big to make changes now. No matter what, people are mad. Well, that sucks for them, but you either get on board or get out.
I thought about this a lot last night (because I obviously have nothing to do). And let me throw it out there, much of this stuff has been discussed and some is trying to be implemented, but I think it all needs to fit together and happen together or nothing works. This is an all or nothing type of deal. I'm sure this is going to be long, so I apologize in advance.
First, athletes need registration cards with photos on them and a unique registration number. This is NOT that expensive, and it is not uncommon to have to do this in other sports. If it costs $5, that is a drop in the bucket. That is not going to be the make or break cost for kids to get involved in cheer. The parents go online, register their child, and someone verify the birthdate. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think parents are going to be more honest than coaches and owners. Most parents won't even think about inputing a birthdate and once it's done, it's done. The child gets a card, and they bring it to every competition. I could even seen it where the coaches have the cards on a keyring, sorted by team to bring instead of expecting the kids to keep up with them. When they register teams, they submit a roster with the child, registration number, and birthdate on it. A copy of this roster goes to someone working backstage and when you check in, they compare the cards to the roster (ensuring things match up and pictures are actual kids-not another kid using someone else's name and birthdate). This person signs off that they believe the roster and the kids match up, and boom-we have someone accountable for saying it's all a match. This makes it easy to track when the same kid is on 5 teams, and when birthdates don't match up. If they register once and simply renew, they can't change their birthdate. If they have the guts to register wrong in the first place, then it'll really suck when senior year comes and they've "aged" out and cannot cheer.
Second, there needs to be an ethics and discipline committee that deals with allegations. I know some people think it's ok for coaches to be on this, but I don't. It's just a personal thing. I am a nobody coach, but I can easily see there are many relationships in the industry that are beyond local gyms... I have coaching friends in other states, and I know about drama in other states. I don't believe that someone currently coaching can provide an unbiased opinion on disciplining teams. I don't think it's right. The people making decisions cannot have anything to gain from punishing one team and not another. I don't think these people should be out of touch with the industry, but I don't think they can be making money as a coach/owner and making decisions that impact another person's business (which could easily be their rival or friend). This committee needs to take all allegations and research them, and hand down decisions. Some allegations will be proven false, and that's fine-but at least there is somewhere to go and a proper channel to follow, no matter if you are a big gym or small gym. You have equal treatment.

Ok, those are my main points. I'll stop because I could easily write another five paragraphs or so, and I'm not that exciting. If you read that you deserve a cookie. :)

I like chocolate chip! I'd go one step further, and require those cards to have a competition headshot of the kid so they can have a quick visual check as they're going on stage at the end of warm ups. Problem solved with a little organization and maybe two new EP duty assignments (the one checking the cards with the roster and the one ensuring the cards actually represent the kid walking on stage).

 

[CoachTamara]

One of the things that somehow needs to be addressed is the unwillingness of many programs to go on the record if they suspect a program of cheating. Too many times I heard - "we are too small no one will pay us any attention; they will say we are just mad that we lost to them; we will get blackballed by the EP's and other gyms in the area if we turn them in; we don't want to be the ones seen as turning them in but can we get some drama started so someone else will turn them in? Or the

Which IMHO are all cowards responses to a real problem that if genuine and backed by factual evidence needs to be fixed. Why complain someone is cheating if you won't say nothing?

Ok, so take the above post and pretend like that is happening... Children are registered, and there is a roster that EPs need to compare to ID cards. If you suspect someone of cheating, you can ask the EP to investigate right there at the competition without disclosing your information. You are anonymous, and you can get it looked at without trouble. Obviously, this means the EP can only compare cards to rosters, but they can look over it again and make sure children are matching up to the cards and birthdates listed. It may not be perfect, but it would catch a blatant cheat in a kid using someone else's card, or someone replacing an injured athlete without being on the team, etc. If it is found to be true, the team is disqualified from the competition. If this does not help and the team is not satisfied, they can then open a formal complain with the ethics committee, which will investigate the claim further. If this happens, the gym can be disclosed to the parties, and it is no longer anonymous, but can bring on real discipline to the gym if they are found to be cheating. Thoughts?

 

[12stepCheermom]

One of the things that somehow needs to be addressed is the unwillingness of many programs to go on the record if they suspect a program of cheating. Too many times I heard - "we are too small no one will pay us any attention; they will say we are just mad that we lost to them; we will get blackballed by the EP's and other gyms in the area if we turn them in; we don't want to be the ones seen as turning them in but can we get some drama started so someone else will turn them in? Or the

Which IMHO are all cowards responses to a real problem that if genuine and backed by factual evidence needs to be fixed. Why complain someone is cheating if you won't say nothing?

Our coaches are actually prepared for people to call us out. They're putting my sons birth certificate on top because we're sure someone will say something...

...my weed is pushing 6-1 and crosses between a junior and senior team. The thing is, he just turned 14 in May. He IS a junior, he just looks like he's 18.

We wouldn't (and I as his mom) be angry with a gym that questioned his eligibility on a junior team (ESP when I see him cross to a senior team). I expect that will happen and have no issue with people questioning it.

Of course that might be because our gym follows the rules and we don't cheat....even when we could.

...my sons girlfriend is just a bit younger (at 12) and also cheers. However she has Turners Syndrome and is not even four feet tall (I know....the tallest kid in the gym and the shortest...they're the odd couple but we love em anyway)....we could put her flying on a mini and basing a tiny team and NO ONE would ever question it. We could get away with that forever!

But we refuse to because we follow the rules. She's on a junior team where she belongs and instead we'll deal with people claiming we use "fetus flyers" when they don't understand the severity of her medical condition but that's a rant for another thread.

Bottom line, we're prepared to prove we aren't cheating....and we don't cheat even when we know we could get away with it. And that's a major reason why my kids wear that uniform versus other options in our area.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Ok, so take the above post and pretend like that is happening... Children are registered, and there is a roster that EPs need to compare to ID cards. If you suspect someone of cheating, you can ask the EP to investigate right there at the competition without disclosing your information. You are anonymous, and you can get it looked at without trouble. Obviously, this means the EP can only compare cards to rosters, but they can look over it again and make sure children are matching up to the cards and birthdates listed. It may not be perfect, but it would catch a blatant cheat in a kid using someone else's card, or someone replacing an injured athlete without being on the team, etc. If it is found to be true, the team is disqualified from the competition. If this does not help and the team is not satisfied, they can then open a formal complain with the ethics committee, which will investigate the claim further. If this happens, the gym can be disclosed to the parties, and it is no longer anonymous, but can bring on real discipline to the gym if they are found to be cheating. Thoughts?

I am in favor of something better than what we currently have which is report and duck for cover.:D

 

[littlebear]

Is this the cheating thread everyone on twitter is talking about? I'm so confused!