All-Star "name" Of Gym Affecting Placement?

[Emily Jane]

sidenote...our coaches now sit with the team AND the score sheet at first practice after comp and discuss areas that need work....smart...yes?

My coach used to do this, I wish she still did :(

 

[tumbleyoda]

I don't understand why gyms would be that embarrassed about scores being posted. I can't imagine bad scores would be worse than a bad performance.

This is the type of situational logic I often hear:

If I put my first year level 2, 3, or 4 team that I had to struggle to put together against their stacked, crossover level 2, 3, or 4 team that has been together as a team for 2-3 years of course they are probably going to win. They not only have the skills, and the numbers, but the competitive experience over my kids. I may not be there yet but I hope to be there one day but I will never get there if I lose kids to them. They can see that they are better; but if they don't know the actual scores then they and their parents don't really know how much better.I need time to build my program and I cant build it if I am losing to them every other weekend/month.

While there are grains of truth in this, to me that is not even so much a scoring issue or a bias issue. It is a how you put your teams together, what is your purpose - beyond competing in putting that team together (is it a must win this year type team, just whatever kids you have or a training team to prepare for the next year) where you take them to compete, and how effectively you communicate your vision of your program to your athletes and parents. These things are just as important, can be dealt with in house and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else in the industry.

 

[tumbleyoda]

It isn't always, but the gyms collectively have all the power. If the gyms could correctly organize and require changes they would be made.

Egads! You mean to say that gyms must drop their warring drama my gym is better than your gym nana nana boo boo ways and start working together for the betterment of the industry? Whatever are you thinking?!?!?!?!?!

(Sarcasm people - kingston is right)

 

[Deleted member 15]

Sometimes it is not the small gym that wants the scores withheld. That is strictly the EP's doing. They can release them or not. If they say they will release all scores and you don't want your score released - don't go to the event. You have EP's that don't want to get publicly called on the carpet for out of line scores either which is another issue.

Having only worked for smaller or lesser known cheer gyms I am the first to admit there are challenges that we face but public scores should not be one of them. I want the scores released. Transparency works for the betterment of every program and the entire industry.

The only time I've heard of a customer contacting us regarding the amount of info released was them asking for less info to be released. From a business perspective why would do anything else?

 

[tumbleyoda]

Understand I am talking about smaller companies here and people that work for them that I have talked with. Some EP's dont release because of the "smallness" of the event. By posting it, in their opinion it looks bad to only have a few teams at your event. I have worked for and answered the phone for one EP and teams were asking us when we would post scores. The company would post placements, but not scores then take them down in 48 hours. They did not want to be challenged on scores is my thinking. Not a good business decision IMO.

To me there is not a good reason to release scores. If an EP stated on their website that they release all scores of all events, and that gym who did not want everyone to see their scores did not want that, they could simply choose not to attend. EP has transparency and the gym could find another event that suited their needs.

 

[shep]

There have been several times when we have won and I have not understood why. (Not as many times as the other way around, but it happens.)

I am not saying that judge/EP bias never happens. I would just say that it happens MUCH less often than people are saying.

I agree. How do you get coaches that don't currently feel that way to start feeling that way?

Make scoring transparent, embarrass coaches that are always right and they will be forced to do one of two things; quit coaching and take a job where accountability is optional (probably an elected position) or accept blame and get over their ego. Complete transparency will do nothing but positive things in the long run. Sort term, it's probably going to be hectic, anytime you change something that has long been established you're going to get resistance and some people will blindly hate the change forever because they will refuse to accept its merits. However I feel that this is a change that will benefit enough people that it will be loved by most and may cause huge expansion in the sport.

 

[debbie]

Our coaches go over the score sheets with the kids as soon as they get them (even the minis!)

 

[Coach Troy]

Just overall impression or everything subjective?

I thought that was the subjective part......

 

[Coach Troy]

For the record I do not think that there is "bias" in judging just poor application of the scoring grids and not enough knowledge of the progression of skills

 

[Deleted member 15]

Understand I am talking about smaller companies here and people that work for them that I have talked with. Some EP's dont release because of the "smallness" of the event. By posting it, in their opinion it looks bad to only have a few teams at your event. I have worked for and answered the phone for one EP and teams were asking us when we would post scores. The company would post placements, but not scores then take them down in 48 hours. They did not want to be challenged on scores is my thinking. Not a good business decision IMO.

To me there is not a good reason to release scores. If an EP stated on their website that they release all scores of all events, and that gym who did not want everyone to see their scores did not want that, they could simply choose not to attend. EP has transparency and the gym could find another event that suited their needs.

The customers that contacted us did not want the scores public. I'm not aware of any that contacted us saying they wanted them public. Why wouldn't a business go with what it appears the majority of their customers want? Why would we push customers, the majority, into leaving by doing something they are specifically asking us not to do and saying if you don't like it go someplace else.

 

[yojaehs]

Because many coaches don't want scores published because they don't want their team's fault available for their parents. I work for an EP and put every number from the score sheet online after our first event. It took 3 days before I was told to take it down due to coaches asking it be removed.

Ok, this is my question...IS it possible for USASF to require EP's that are members of the USASF to make all scores public? I only ask this because if this was the norm then all coaches would know what they are getting into BEFORE they registered for the event. IF they chose not to attend the event, fine but then they would have to look OUTSIDE an USASF event. Again, I'm asking if this is possible/feasible. I don't mean this as an attack on the USASF, just a question. Also, another question, what would have happened had you as the EP NOT removed those scores? I assume it wasn't something you did on a whim/surprise so coaches probably knew it was going to happen, WHAT are they trying to hide?

 

[Deleted member 15]

Make scoring transparent, embarrass coaches that are always right and they will be forced to do one of two things; quit coaching and take a job where accountability is optional (probably an elected position) or accept blame and get over their ego. Complete transparency will do nothing but positive things in the long run. Sort term, it's probably going to be hectic, anytime you change something that has long been established you're going to get resistance and some people will blindly hate the change forever because they will refuse to accept its merits. However I feel that this is a change that will benefit enough people that it will be loved by most and may cause huge expansion in the sport.

If all EPs had to release scores it wouldn't be an issue, but as long as it appears the majority of the customers don't want the scores released EPs are going to because they don't want to push customers away over it. On the other hand if more customers start contacting EPs saying they want scores released, enough that they appear to be the majority, EPs will look at making that change.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I thought that was the subjective part......

I think Dance & Choreography are very subjective. Not as much as overall impression, but not far behind either.

 

[yojaehs]

If all EPs had to release scores it wouldn't be an issue, but as long as it appears the majority of the customers don't want the scores released EPs are going to because they don't want to push customers away over it. On the other hand if more customers start contacting EPs saying they want scores released, enough that they appear to be the majority, EPs will look at making that change.

Point taken. Did "customerS" say why they didn't want them released?

 

[Coach Troy]

True but at least there some peramiters and guideline. All we should worry about is taking care of our kids hitting are routine and realize the rest is all "in the eye of the beholder"