All-Star Redfining Positions In Stunts

[King]

This is still leaving a stunt that is currently legal at level 3 (single based Ext la stunt needs only 2 people on the ground) not legal until level 5

I'm in favor of the simplification by removing the difference of spotters and bases, but not in favor of using this to make the stunts more restrictive than they currently are
As well as a few other similar things

Also, you are misinterpreting it. The stunt would STILL be legal at level 3. It would just had additional spotters. The requirements are for the number of bases and spotters. so if you only want one person basing the others can be spotters.

 

[socratesofcheer]

Also, you are misinterpreting it. The stunt would STILL be legal at level 3. It would just had additional spotters. The requirements are for the number of bases and spotters. so if you only want one person basing the others can be spotters.

Don't want to speak for someone else, but, I believe what @CGAcheer is saying is this;

Currently in level 3&4 you can put up 6 extended one leg stunts on a small team of 20.
Under the new proposal the max you could put would be 5 due to the 3 person being attentive to a stunt.

I could be wrong but I believe that is where he is going.

 

[King]

Don't want to speak for someone else, but, I believe what @CGAcheer is saying is this;

Currently in level 3&4 you can put up 6 extended one leg stunts on a small team of 20.
Under the new proposal the max you could put would be 5 due to the 3 person being attentive to a stunt.

I could be wrong but I believe that is where he is going.

Possibly, but it wouldn't have as dramatic a shift when you think about it. Instead of 6 coed stunts on a small team you could only do 5. Instead of 9 coed stunts on large you could only do 7. And, lets be honest, how many teams were actually able to put up 9 true coed stunts in level 3 and 4 over the years? I am sure there was 1 or 2, but there was not an abundance.

 

[King]

I should probably throw in my version of a large team is 30... as to that is what it will end up being in a year or two anyway.

 

[rvnblue]

Yes. There is simply no way to replace the whole set of rules with a few tables, unfortunately. There will need to be several clarifications/exceptions/etc. The goal is not to significantly change what is allowed, but to make the rules more efficient and easier to understand. Hopefully, easier rules would more likely be followed - leading to fewer injuries.

Do you think the cradle legalities would suffice as the required catchers for inversions? And if not, why not?

 

[CGAcheer]

Also, you are misinterpreting it. The stunt would STILL be legal at level 3. It would just had additional spotters. The requirements are for the number of bases and spotters. so if you only want one person basing the others can be spotters.

no misinterpretation, as socrates put it, it still takes more people whether they are actively in the stunt or spotting.

Currently you can do an unassisted single based extended heel stretch in 3-5 with only one spotter, under this grid you have to have 3 people on the ground dedicated to the stunt.

that way your 30 person coed 4 team can put up 10 stunts or your 15-19 person level 3 team can put up a 5 stunt pyramid. or the team with 19 kids being able to put up 5 stunts

under the logic of changing the grip making it safer, then why do we need to add another spotter on top of what is currently required?

Do you guys feel that the following is Unsafe?
Cradles:
For levels 1-5 all cradles require at least 2 catchers, with the following exceptions:
at level 1, Cradles from prep level require 3 catchers.
at Level 2 Cradles from extension require 3 catchers.
Level 6, only requires 1 catcher for 0-1 skill cradles

Stunts:
Level 1, stunts at prep level require 3 attentive athletes(AA)
Level 2, Prep Level stunts require 2 AA, extended stunts need 3 AA
Level 3-5 Extended Stunts need 2 AA
Level 6 only needs 1 AA but perhaps 2 AA for free flipping entries

its simpler and slightly more restrictive than our current rules at level 1 and 2 by requiring 3 bases/catchers regardless of grip for prep and extension, respectively. Currently you can do it with only 2 depending on your grip.

The only difference at 3-5 is it takes out the spotter language which allows a double based prep or extension cradle to only have 2 catchers instead of the currently required 3 catchers for levels 3-5. Is there any real difference between a single based extension with a spotter Cradle and a double based extension Cradle? if your answer is no, then why should it require a 3rd catcher.

So it would seem to me, and according to the logic of most of the posters on this thread, that the above is Safer and much simpler than our current system also much simpler than the proposed grid since there is only below prep, at prep with Cradle and base numbers being the same, and extended versus the grid having 9 Cradle variations and 4 stunt variations.

so 3 scenarios instead of 36 scenarios.

 

[BlueCat]

no misinterpretation, as socrates put it, it still takes more people whether they are actively in the stunt or spotting.

Currently you can do an unassisted single based extended heel stretch in 3-5 with only one spotter, under this grid you have to have 3 people on the ground dedicated to the stunt.

that way your 30 person coed 4 team can put up 10 stunts or your 15-19 person level 3 team can put up a 5 stunt pyramid. or the team with 19 kids being able to put up 5 stunts

under the logic of changing the grip making it safer, then why do we need to add another spotter on top of what is currently required?

Do you guys feel that the following is Unsafe?
Cradles:
For levels 1-5 all cradles require at least 2 catchers, with the following exceptions:
at level 1, Cradles from prep level require 3 catchers.
at Level 2 Cradles from extension require 3 catchers.
Level 6, only requires 1 catcher for 0-1 skill cradles

Stunts:
Level 1, stunts at prep level require 3 attentive athletes(AA)
Level 2, Prep Level stunts require 2 AA, extended stunts need 3 AA
Level 3-5 Extended Stunts need 2 AA
Level 6 only needs 1 AA but perhaps 2 AA for free flipping entries

its simpler and slightly more restrictive than our current rules at level 1 and 2 by requiring 3 bases/catchers regardless of grip for prep and extension, respectively. Currently you can do it with only 2 depending on your grip.

The only difference at 3-5 is it takes out the spotter language which allows a double based prep or extension cradle to only have 2 catchers instead of the currently required 3 catchers for levels 3-5. Is there any real difference between a single based extension with a spotter Cradle and a double based extension Cradle? if your answer is no, then why should it require a 3rd catcher.

So it would seem to me, and according to the logic of most of the posters on this thread, that the above is Safer and much simpler than our current system also much simpler than the proposed grid since there is only below prep, at prep with Cradle and base numbers being the same, and extended versus the grid having 9 Cradle variations and 4 stunt variations.

so 3 scenarios instead of 36 scenarios.

Again, you seem to be starting with the assumption that everything that is currently legal is safe. I personally do not think that the typical L3 team should be putting squad unassisted liberty heel stretches up with 1 person standing there. There may be a team somewhere that could do it, but the typical L3 (or L4) team would not.

Also, your list does not contain information about the stunts each level is allowed (or not allowed) to do. If you are comparing the complexity of the two grids/lists, you would need to add some language to yours about that to make a fair comparison. I am still going to be inclined to like a simple table that makes it easy to "look up" the stunt you want to do, but I don't always view things like everyone else. Whatever is going to be easier for most people to understand and follow is the direction we should go, IMO.

 

[King]

@BlueCat @CGAcheer
Not to mention what is currently legal isn't currently done. I tried to find examples where the change in number would hurt a coed senior 3 team (because this is the most likely place it would have) and I didn't find any examples. In a way that division has self regulated themselves.. we are just putting a rule to it. A level 5 athlete should have less restrictions putting up an extended stunt than a level 3 athlete. That just makes sense.

 

[socratesofcheer]

@BlueCat @CGAcheer
Not to mention what is currently legal isn't currently done. I tried to find examples where the change in number would hurt a coed senior 3 team (because this is the most likely place it would have) and I didn't find any examples. In a way that division has self regulated themselves.. we are just putting a rule to it. A level 5 athlete should have less restrictions putting up an extended stunt than a level 3 athlete. That just makes sense.

Think small senior level 3/4 with 18 or 19 kids trying to do 5 stunts. It's not necessarily a "squad" issue more than that one stunt group.

We often look at numbers so the team of 27 can compete with the team of 30. If you make it a perceived disadvantage to have 1 less person on a team, it's going to be very hard to get traction.

 

[BlueCat]

Think small senior level 3/4 with 18 or 19 kids trying to do 5 stunts. It's not necessarily a "squad" issue more than that one stunt group.

We often look at numbers so the team of 27 can compete with the team of 30. If you make it a perceived disadvantage to have 1 less person on a team, it's going to be very hard to get traction.

I get what you are saying, but if the judges know that it is impossible for a L3 team of 19 to put up 5 stunts, then I don't see them penalizing them for "only" putting up 4. Besides, that is really a scoresheet/judging issue that shouldn't affect the safety guidelines themselves. The issue is whether a typical L3 squad can, with reasonable safety, do a stretch with just two people under it.

 

[King]

I get what you are saying, but if the judges know that it is impossible for a L3 team of 19 to put up 5 stunts, then I don't see them penalizing them for "only" putting up 4. Besides, that is really a scoresheet/judging issue that shouldn't affect the safety guidelines themselves. The issue is whether a typical L3 squad can, with reasonable safety, do a stretch with just two people under it.

I would say 'No'.

 

[CGAcheer]

Can the typical level 5 team do squad double ups? Should we outlaw stuff just because of "typical" teams?

The differences in 3-5 are not about how the stunt is held it is about hoy you get into and out of the stunt as well as transitions within the stunt

My above post does account for all the various stunts, stunts are either below prep, at prep or extended and it lists the numbers of required attentive athletes for each stunt/cradle height at each level.

As for examples of teams this would affect look at coed teams at worlds, they would have to pull in a third catcher for the double twisting cradles

With the grip change it's safer than what we currently have without adding lots of extra restrictions

 

[King]

Can the typical level 5 team do squad double ups? Should we outlaw stuff just because of "typical" teams?

The differences in 3-5 are not about how the stunt is held it is about hoy you get into and out of the stunt as well as transitions within the stunt

My above post does account for all the various stunts, stunts are either below prep, at prep or extended and it lists the numbers of required attentive athletes for each stunt/cradle height at each level.

As for examples of teams this would affect look at coed teams at worlds, they would have to pull in a third catcher for the double twisting cradles

With the grip change it's safer than what we currently have without adding lots of extra restrictions

But nothing is being outlawed. That is what I keep trying to explain. What exactly would the grid outlaw?

 

[CGAcheer]

But nothing is being outlawed. That is what I keep trying to explain. What exactly would the grid outlaw?

at 1:29 in the video is a pyramid our Level 3 plus 1 coach on a day where we were missing a few people were able to put up within about 5 mins

This would be "outlawed" We can currently put up extended stunts with just 2 people on the ground, the grid is requiring 3 which would then outlaw doing it with only 2, sure you can still do the same stunt but you have to have another person dedicated to the stunt.

So that will be the front spot 2.0, Hi Suzy, I just need you to stand near this stunt so that is legal. Why is my little suzy just standing there? Because we get more points from your suzy just standing than we do with her helping in the stunt, she's also there just in case the stunt falls

 

[King]

at 1:29 in the video is a pyramid our Level 3 plus 1 coach on a day where we were missing a few people were able to put up within about 5 mins

This would be "outlawed" We can currently put up extended stunts with just 2 people on the ground, the grid is requiring 3 which would then outlaw doing it with only 2, sure you can still do the same stunt but you have to have another person dedicated to the stunt.

So that will be the front spot 2.0, Hi Suzy, I just need you to stand near this stunt so that is legal. Why is my little suzy just standing there? Because we get more points from your suzy just standing than we do with her helping in the stunt, she's also there just in case the stunt falls

First, that is a pyramid... NOT a stunt. So, from JUST a stunt discussion, not a pyramid discussion what is being outlawed?